Critical Thinking and Worldview Formation | Dr. Renton Rathbun

Have you thought about how your children will learn critical thinking skills? Right now, your child is learning what to love, what to mock, and what to call “true” long before they can explain it. That’s the quiet battle behind screen time, peer pressure, music lyrics, and the endless scroll, and it’s why we sat down with Dr. Renton Rathbun, longtime professor and parent advocate, to talk about raising kids who can actually think. This is an amazing conversation. Full of laughter but also full of wisdom and insight. 

We get practical about worldview formation and critical thinking for kids, including why simply banning content can backfire, and how supervised exposure plus real conversation teaches discernment. Renton explains why humans are wired as “story brains,” not fact machines, and why every family needs a clear template for meaning, truth, and standards. If you’ve ever wondered how to help your child evaluate ideas instead of just reacting to them, you’ll leave with language you can use tonight.

We also go straight at fatherhood and mentorship. Renton makes a strong case that dads drift into escapism when they feel tired or unsure, and that real change often requires an older, wise man to challenge and guide them. We talk about discipline versus mentoring, winning a battle but losing a child’s heart, and the power of doing something simple but hard: being present, naming the good moments, and saying “I love you” out loud.

You’ll also hear the tetherball model that turns fuzzy “opinions” into clear questions: What do you believe? How do you know it’s true? Can you justify it? If this conversation helps you, subscribe, share it with a parent or dad who needs it, and leave a review so more families can find it.

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Transcript

Warm Welcome And Parenting Banter

Dr. Amy Moore 0:00

Hi, smart moms and dads. We're so glad you joined us for another episode of the Brainy Moms podcast brought to you today by Learning R X Brain Training Centers. I'm Dr. Amy Moore. I'm here with my co-host Sandy Zamalis. And before we introduce you to our guests today, we want to remind you that we have a free monthly newsletter. So if you want more from us, be sure to go to um thebrainy moms.com to sign up for that, where we give you free resources on the topics that we cover on our show. More about parenting, child development, homeschooling, and anything else that you might want to learn more about. And now our conversation today is with Dr. Rinton Rathman. Let me tell you a little bit about him if you don't know who he is yet. So Dr. Renton has been a college professor for over 25 years. He holds a bachelor's degree in English education. And get this four master's degrees. My husband said, What is that called? You know, when you have three doctorates, it's called You're a Wizard. What is it called when you have four master's degrees and a doctorate? Have you looked it up? No? Okay, we gotta look that up. All right, let me tell you what they're in, because I know you want to know. He has a master's degree in speech, he has one in creative writing, he has one in philosophy, and he has one in theology. And his PhD is in historical and theological studies. I thought I was smart, but I think he's smarter. He's the host of the hit podcast, The Written Rathman Show, a podcast for parents. Unscripted, unedited, and raw. The Written Rathman Show uses guest experts, a bit of sarcasm, and some laughs to tackle malicious worldviews embedded into our society. We might talk about some of those today. Welcome, Written. We're so excited you're here.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 1:52

Well, thanks for having me. This is fun.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:55

So are you from South Carolina?

Dr. Renton Rathbun 1:57

Uh actually, no.

Dr. Amy Moore 2:04

We uh we interviewed um this really dynamic uh psychologist about two hours ago. And Sandy dominated the conversation. And so I felt like I've been sitting here with all of these words inside me, begging to get out. And so this is what you get. You you log on, and now I get to talk.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 2:26

Yeah.

Sandy Zamalis 2:28

I'm gonna let the PhDs work it out.

Dr. Amy Moore 2:32

Look, I don't know if I can hang. I only have one master's degree and a PhD. And so I'm like, I'm not sure about this.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 2:39

I feel like I'm just wasting my time here.

Dr. Amy Moore 2:46

Like maybe we should just let Ritten talk. Like you just talk for the next 45 minutes. We'll record you.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 2:51

Don't do that, boy. I've been called into the principal's office many times.

Dr. Amy Moore 2:56

So maybe you're gonna feel like that this time.

unknown 3:02

No.

Dr. Amy Moore 3:02

I don't think we're gonna agree on anything today.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 3:05

Well, that's good. That makes for a good people will tune in, you know. Everyone likes conflict, right?

Dr. Amy Moore 3:11

Here's the thing. This is the funny thing. Like, we probably agree on a lot of stuff. Like I am, I'm conservative evangelical, like, but sometimes I get this extra burst of energy and this comes out.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 3:28

Yes. Well, I'm glad it came out while I'm on. That's cool.

unknown 3:31

Right.

Dr. Amy Moore 3:34

Um, I know you sent us some questions, but I don't like them, so we're probably not going to talk about that.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 3:38

That's fine because I've forgotten what they were already.

Dr. Amy Moore 3:41

See, it's perfect. So we could talk about the wickedness of wicked.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 3:50

If you want to.

Dr. Amy Moore 3:51

Because I'll push back on your theology a little. But then but then because my PhD is in psychology and not theology, I might lose.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 4:04

Well, no, you don't you don't need a degree to be a theologian. I just did a show on that last week.

Dr. Amy Moore 4:10

I don't do well with losing.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 4:16

Yeah, me neither. Yeah, we uh we just did a show today on screen time.

unknown 4:22

Yeah.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 4:22

And we had a guy in and all that stuff, and uh so I talked about how in our family we've tried to get rid of some screens in our house. And uh, but then you gotta talk to the kid and and do stuff. And it's like, and you realize this is really hard. And and so we started playing board games, and so we're playing sorry, which apparently is supposed to teach you how to say sorry. Um I kind of work on that.

Sandy Zamalis 4:52

That's a war starting game.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 4:54

It is, and it's so competitive, and I've realized that I don't like to lose even to my nine and eleven year old. Uh I mean they need to learn how to lose, right? I think that's that's that is that's because you're the psychology people, you should probably rebuke me on that. But I got I've gotten really competitive with them.

Dr. Amy Moore 5:17

It's okay to feel what you feel, right? It's just what you do with those feelings.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 5:23

Yeah. That's uh that's true.

unknown 5:27

Yeah.

Dr. Amy Moore 5:27

I mean, like I was telling this story, we had a really big snow day. My kids are all in their 20s now, but they were all in their teens-ish. Uh really big snow day. So they were playing Settlers of Catan um around the table. So I have three boys. So my three boys and my husband. I I didn't I don't love the game, so but I took photos. And so I posted a photo on Facebook, it's probably 10 years ago or so. Uh said something like Snow Day game of Settlers of a Catan. And then about 30 minutes later, I posted another photo on Facebook of my husband sitting alone with the board game and pieces. And I think I, you know, said, and then there was one. Because there were tears, there was screaming, there was yelling, like they were dropping like flies. And so board games can get that way.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 6:23

Yeah. They they uh they bring out what's inside, I think. So if you have a lot of anger in there, uh that's what it brings out. I must have a lot of anger because I it's really competitive and I want to beat everybody.

Sandy Zamalis 6:37

Sounds like Well, the hard part with the game like sorry, um, is that it's all luck. Like it's like, you know, all of a sudden you've been, you know, sent back.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 6:46

It's true, but you have choices. Like you could really ruin someone's day or just kind of exchange with someone else.

Sandy Zamalis 6:53

So there's some viciousness involved. Yeah.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 6:56

And it seems as though I keep choosing the viciousness.

Dr. Amy Moore 6:59

Yeah. So my mom and I play mahjong. My my 83-year-old mom lives with us now. And uh we play mahjong almost every night.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 7:09

What is mahjong? What's mahjong? No. No.

Dr. Amy Moore 7:14

It's like this uh game of Chinese tiles, like uh dominoes, but they're it's kind of like rummy.

Sandy Zamalis 7:22

If you think about it like rummy. Yeah, like there's all with tiles.

Dr. Amy Moore 7:25

Yeah, so it's with tiles and uh anyway, it's really big with old people. Okay. And and I'm old now. And so I keep saying that. You know, mid-50s feels older than you. And so uh I'm 53. I'm I'm just about to die myself. You still have young kids.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 7:50

I do. I have a 25-year-old um who just gave me a grandchild, which I really appreciated. And uh jealousy but then I have a nine-year-old and eleven-year-old uh because we just weren't ready to be happy yet.

unknown 8:04

Right.

Dr. Amy Moore 8:05

So we had more You're like, let's do it again.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 8:08

But we uh but it was we fostered and um and then adopted them. We didn't want to give them back, so we held on to them.

Dr. Amy Moore 8:17

I love that. Oh, that's amazing. I love that.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 8:21

Yeah.

Dr. Amy Moore 8:22

Okay. All right, so then you're old like us. We get it. Okay, we're good. This is a better conversation now. Okay. Thank you. Um it's more of a level playing field. He's old and smart, Sandy. I know we're in trouble. Right. Um point being, we play for money. And yeah. So we play a penny a point, and it can get like to the point where we're paying out three, four dollars at the end of the game. And goodness, you guys are really good at it.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 9:02

Right? Like I love that. I'm gonna start making my kids put their allowance in there. I think we can get something going.

Speaker 6 9:12

Yeah.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 9:14

Because if I take their money, that would really teach them something. Dad's in children.

Dr. Amy Moore 9:17

Well, and that's the thing. I I got mad at my mom early on when we started this. I'm like, mom, you should not take your child's money. You should not beat your child like this. Right in 55, she's 83. Like it didn't feel right. And she was doing it with pleasure.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 9:34

Ah, see, there it is. Right?

Dr. Amy Moore 9:36

And I thought, this is not right. There's something in this dynamic that hurts my heart.

unknown 9:44

Right.

Dr. Amy Moore 9:45

And so I just decided, well, I'm gonna feel that way about taking her money too, then.

Sandy Zamalis 9:50

Well, you should. I I know your mom, and she's a card shark, that woman. She is a card shark.

Speaker 4 9:56

She is so competitive. So you should have seen that one coming.

unknown 10:02

Anyway.

Speaker 4 10:03

She's ruthless. In a very sweet and adorable way. Ruthless.

Dr. Amy Moore 10:09

She is.

Speaker 4 10:09

That's how they get you.

Dr. Amy Moore 10:11

Yeah. I know, right? And she's very bossy and demanding. Like, if I don't feel like going to the gym, she makes me.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 10:18

Oh wow, she goes with you?

Dr. Amy Moore 10:19

Yeah. Oh yeah. She's standing there in her workout clothes, going, get dressed, let's go.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 10:24

Oh, wow.

Dr. Amy Moore 10:24

She's 83. She's 83. I'll be done. Like, I'm done on the treadmill. I'm done with the weights. And she's like, well, I need another 10 minutes. I'm like, what is happening?

Dr. Renton Rathbun 10:38

That's good. You have good genes. Look what you have to look forward to.

Dr. Amy Moore 10:42

What is happening?

Dr. Renton Rathbun 10:46

Anyway.

Dr. Amy Moore 10:46

She's like, oh yeah, I just don't weigh enough. And I'm like, really?

Dr. Renton Rathbun 10:51

I just don't weigh enough.

Dr. Amy Moore 10:54

I need to eat more. Like, I wish I had never said me never. Okay. I think we should actually start the show.

Sandy Zamalis 11:04

Yeah, poor written. Let's we should talk about something uh like critical thinking. All right, fine. Something hefty.

Why He Quit Teaching College

Dr. Renton Rathbun 11:12

Well, thanks for having me. This is fun.

Sandy Zamalis 11:14

We're so glad you're here. Why don't you kick us off and get us uh started? Explain uh to our listeners kind of how you became passionate about uh what you do in terms of teaching parents how to really teach their kids to think critically.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 11:33

Well, it starts with a story that's kind of depressing. Uh it was the day I decided I was done teaching. Um so I'm sitting there in this big, you know, this big classroom. It's one of those with the um, you know, the the seats that go way up. And so I got all these kids sitting in front of me and I'm talking about um some pretty important stuff about um about theology, you know, what's what's next if if you die and that kind of stuff, and and then, you know, how do we think about these things? And it's like the kind of stuff that is you kind of expect, you know, isn't just now there's nothing wrong with math, but it's not just math, it's it's something about their lives and and things like that. And as I'm talking, I'm looking at them, and I just they just don't care. Uh no one cared. And I've I've run into that a lot, you know, you teach for 25 years. Uh, but at that point, uh a lot of things had happened that year, especially with the students. There's this kind of, you know, technology is what it is, and the kids have kind of changed a little bit. And I just thought, you know what? I think I'm done. And uh because I thought we need to reach the kids sooner. Um, I had spent my whole life trying to reach kids all the way into the college realm. And they had uh, you know, by that time, you know, they have a lot of ideas and a lot of thoughts. Their worldview is very, it's getting more and more solid. And so to try and reach them and try and say, this is how you think, this is what truth is about, how do you reach a good justification for your beliefs and stuff like that? Um, I think I just got to a point where I just saw, I I don't think I'm gonna reach them at this age. We gotta reach them earlier. And so I thought, how do I, how do we reach more kids earlier? We need to change how we're parenting. And so uh we I was asked by a rich guy up in Wisconsin if I would start a podcast, and so he gave me a bunch of stuff that we'd use. And uh, and so I do a podcast, um, I go around all over America and uh and now Canada, um, and I speak on on worldview, I speak on critical thinking and those kind of things, mostly to parents, um, some to educators who are K through 12 educators, because I just feel like um not that it's too late when they hit college, but man, if we got them earlier, uh and you know, I just feel like we'd have so much more to do uh and so much further we can go with them. And so that's why I feel so passionately about it.

Dr. Amy Moore 14:25

So I'm sure you've had time then to think about what do we need to do earlier? What does that look like?

Dr. Renton Rathbun 14:34

Yeah, so on the uh on the one end, uh a lot of my a lot of what I think needs to be done earlier is because I didn't. So uh I have a 25-year-old son, and um and during that time in my life when we were raising uh that particular you know, Daniel as his name, uh I was I was somewhere else all the time. Even when I was home, my mind was somewhere else. Uh I was trying to go up the ladder of tenure, and you know, I thought teaching at college was was my great calling in the world, and I had to keep pursuing all these degrees because I didn't know what to do with myself, and I was just a mess, really. Uh what do you call a guy with four masters and a PhD? I guess you call him indecisive and uh not knowing what he should be doing with himself. And I put my poor wife through uh through everything. It was terrible. Um but then everything changed in my life eventually, and I got I got a guy in my life who uh uh invested in me and and became a mentor to me. He was an older man and uh and just guided me and taught me what it meant to lead a home, taught me what it meant to be a father, to be a husband, um, kind of made a man out of me. And I was all the way in my 30s. I had been my wife's oldest child for the like eight years of our marriage, and um and so suddenly I was trying to turn things around. And to answer your question, what I what I realized was that I was pouring myself into the world, and I had poured nothing into my son. And um and so what can we do to reach kids earlier? We need to reach parents to help them understand and see that their calling in this world is not out there. Uh out there is so that you can make enough money to do your calling, which is at home. Um, women tend to get this, uh, but men don't. And that's why um we have a very strong presence on YouTube because YouTube is is watched mostly by men. It's just a statistic. I don't even know why or what the psychology behind it is. But we are always trying to get men to listen to what we're talking about because whenever there's a parent, you know, podcast or something about homeschooling, the women tune in, but the guy's like, oh, well, that's my wife's job. I'll just, you know, I'm gonna find out what's going on in sports because that's uh what people will care about in their deathbed. Um I guess we just don't think about, you know, death. We don't think about when I'm and you know, now that I'm 50, I'm definitely thinking about death. But um but my point is as parents, we're not thinking about what am I going to regret? How much am I messing up at home, and how do I insert myself with intentionality into my kids' life? Because I think we think it happens naturally because we're living with them, and it doesn't. And we find that out way too late when they become teenagers and they and they, you know, hate us and make us drop them off, you know, a block ahead of them all or whatever. So I guess the first thing we need to do is mom and dad need to be need to have a meeting and decide what their plan is and vision is for their children and how they're going to get their children to know how to be thinkers. And if they if their goal is to have children that can really think, then they say, then they need to say, okay, well, what's our plan to get them to understand a strong worldview that will help them categorize and and lay out a template for them to be able to think well. And then you start moving along that line. I think it's why a lot of people homeschool because you know they might be doing that a little bit, but we've got to be very intentional. Very intentional, because I've I've seen what it happens when we're not, and it's awful.

Dr. Amy Moore 18:47

Well, sure, because our children are going to be indoctrinated somewhere by some message. And so that should be from us if we have a strong worldview that we want to make sure that they uh adopt or at least consider. At least consider, right? Because if we're talking about thinking critically, right, even if we start early, then the our teenagers are gonna deconstruct some of that, right? And so where are they gonna do that deconstructing? Right, in the safety of their own home where we can say, all right, let's look at what possibilities you're considering, or in the world.

Sandy Zamalis 19:33

And the reality is you have a limited amount of time to do that. You don't have their, you know, your child's life is gonna be spent independently of you for much longer than they are with you.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 19:44

That's the truth. And and the and the thing But they do come back. They do.

Dr. Amy Moore 19:51

At least one of them will.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 19:54

And it won't be your favorite either. But here's the thing: like you said, somebody's gonna be teaching them. Somebody's gonna be influencing them. Because, you know, back during the Reformation, you had uh Martin Luther who started this new thing called catechizing your children. So up into that point, they had they had these catechisms, you know, for adults and all that sort of stuff, these little summaries of what people believe about their faith. But Martin Luther said, no, we need a catechism for children. And that he was the first one to really start doing that. Um because he saw if we can if we can start catechizing the children, then they'll start growing up with these ideas and see the influence early. Well, we're still catechizing our children, but the world, you know, the our society is catechizing our children. Every time they put their headphones in, someone is catechizing your child your your child with rhymes and uh beats and repetitive choruses. Um there's nothing more uh nothing more like a catechism than repetition, and and that's what songs do. And so what they listen to, you know, in their ears, what they're watching on YouTube, um what their friends are saying, what they're what they feel pressured to do and think. Um and then of course the pressure of not being like mom and dad. Um and because the familiar, and that's something that technology has taught our kids, whatever is familiar needs to be destroyed, and everything new is probably true. And so, and so when they're around mom and dad, you know, and they're talking about their stuff, they're like, ugh, you know. So we have to find ways to to to influence our children. So it can't be just like, you know, time to a chair and say, listen to what I have to say. We have to influence them. That means they have to, we have to come alongside them. And they have to want to learn from us. Um and that is that takes incredible amount of work. Anyone can lecture their kid. It's hard to influence your kid.

Dr. Amy Moore 22:13

So how do you create those invitations?

Dr. Renton Rathbun 22:18

Such a short question for such a long answer. Yeah, how do you create that? Um well, first of all, you have some you have some um control, especially when they're young, as to what is cool. And what I mean by that is uh, you know, I never I didn't feel influenced by my family as I was growing up because it was the 80s, and um, you know, your parents just didn't understand, you know. Uh the French Fresh Prince of Bel Air taught us this. And and so, you know, I remember going to a movie and and seeing uh it was a it was a Christmas movie about a man stuck in a in this high-rise and he was trying to save all these people um from being killed. Um one of the greatest Christmas movies ever made, probably.

Speaker 6 23:14

Watch it every year.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 23:16

And I remember seeing Bruce Willis, and I just thought, that is that is the coolest guy in the universe. And I want to be like him. I want to sound like him, I want to be funny like him, I want my hair to look like him, I want to be Bruce Willis. And there is something within all of us that longs to mimic. The question is, what has influenced us to desire to mimic this person or that person? Um, you know, today we have kids that long to mimic, you know, Deadpool when they should be mimicking their dad or their mom because they think they're the most important, not necessarily cool, but I mean, that's who I want to be like. And how do you control that? How do you help your kids see that even though Deadpool's really funny and muscular and does all these cool things, in the end, he is a man child who is foolish. And you do not want to grow up to be a man child who's foolish. Um, but what happens is with the media we allow into our home to let the kids absorb, and the the media starts teaching our kids what cool is, and the media is influencing our kids, and this goes this goes to every screen that's in front of their face, whether it be their social media or whatever. And because we want peace in the home, we allow them to have you know phones at s at you know eight years old, because we want peace in the home, we let them have in you know social media accounts way too, way too early in their life, because we want peace in the home, we let them watch whatever they want and we just kind of roll our eyes. But if we start controlling those kind of things while we can to help them understand what is it you should want to be like, who is it you should want to be like, um, they start we see we can steer those things if we're if we're being careful about media, and then we are careful about how we help them see in their lives at the time and take teachable moments. Like if you're watching a Disney movie and you you stop it and say, What do you think about that, kids? You think do you think that's how you should talk to your mom and dad? What do you think about a kid like that? Because this kid's supposed to be the star of the whole thing. We're supposed to be sympathetic to him, it's in the movie. And so stopping movie ruining movies is something I think parents should do. And the kids get used to ruining movies on their own and and and ruining songs, and because they're actually listening to lyrics and asking questions about the lyrics. Um, you know, it's one thing to to forbid your kid from listening to Taylor Swift. It's another thing saying, you know what, I want you to take the music out and just read me the lyrics and tell me if you if you feel smarter at the end of that. And and have conversations about those things so that you can really dig into it and help them start assessing the world instead of digesting the world.

Dr. Amy Moore 26:21

Okay, I love this perspective because I think so many parents who want to protect their children simply set boundaries or make rules and say, all of this is off limits because it's not safe for your brain, it's not healthy for your spirit, we're not going to have a conversation about it because I said that this is the decision I'm making for you. And what I'm hearing you say is that then they don't get to learn how to think critically about those things that their parents are saying are bad for them. But if we do allow some supervised collaborative exposure to these things so that actually it is a safe experience, right? Where we are allowing them to see it, but then talk about how it's making them feel, what might be wrong with that, how is it not aligned with our family values or our worldview, right? That's what I'm hearing you say.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 27:27

Yeah, exactly. Because then they start realizing that just because I let this in to our lives doesn't mean I'm a I'm putting my stamp of approval on it. We actually have a world, if I can put it this way, a worldview in our family that we insist upon being the template by which we compare all other things. And, you know, whether you are a religious person or non-religious, at the heart of epistemology or the heart of how we come to know things, is that you have to have a template, a template of learning. Um, in other words, knowledge doesn't come with its own bookshelf. You have to set it up. So, how do you set up facts? How do you set up how I'm going to interpret facts? How do I set up how those facts are going to be aligned in a story that helps me have context for my facts? What story have I come to believe about the world that will be the context of my facts? And if we're not setting those things up, even at an early age, kindergartners can understand this because they can understand story. Because I believe, and you know, over a lot of study and work, I don't believe that we are factoid machines. I don't believe we have soft where our our brains are software, uh, like a software type brain. I believe our brains are story brains, um, because n because the whole point of knowledge is to make meaning out of it. So knowledge is knowledge when there's meaning. It's not knowledge when I've recited a fact, and it's not knowledge because I'm able to repeat something, it's knowledge when it becomes meaningful. Well, how does anything become meaningful? It has to pass through the storyline that I've come to believe about the world. And if you if you take that away, there's no way to make meaning. And so part of our guidance with our kids is helping them understand what is the story you're living in so that as you're looking at facts, you know how to interpret them or at least to put them into a context so that you're actually thinking about them because you can't assess, you can't, you can't um, you can't, how do I put it? Um it's not merely identifying or eval or um analyzing, but you can't evaluate anything if you don't have something to rub it up against. You know, how do I know if something's good or bad? Well, I'd have to have some kind of standard. Where's my standard come from? It comes from the story I live in. And so if they start understanding the story early, then as you start introducing introducing the standards that match the story, they start understanding this a lot clearer as they get older.

Dads Need Real Mentors

Sandy Zamalis 30:24

I love that, just as a principle. And you know, whether it be the Bible or, you know, story development in general, I think that character is such a big, huge thing that we learn from stories. And now a word from our sponsor, Learning RX. In middle school, Kevin had given up on learning because of his reading struggles. His parents had tried everything and they were losing hope until they enrolled him in the cognitive training and reading programs at Learning RX. It was hard, but he gained confidence as he strengthened his memory, attention, processing speed, visualization, reasoning, and auditory processing skills. Years later, his mother wrote to us that Kevin has graduated from college and is beginning his master's degree. He's a military officer and is married with his own children. He's thriving in life, in learning, and in his career. We can't promise your child will have the same results as Kevin, but we love to talk to you about our brain training programs. If your child is struggling with reading or learning, talk to the team at Learning RX to see if we might be the right fit for your child. Visit LearningRx.com slash the brainy moms to learn more and receive a cognitive skills assessment with a consultation for just ninety-nine dollars. That's learningrx.com slash the brainy moms. I want to jump back a little bit, Ritten, to what you were kind of said earlier, which is that you it sounds to me like you have a heart for dads, especially coming alongside this process, that it's really easy for moms to understand this in the big picture. But sometimes it gets lost in the pursuit of career and life and happiness on the dad's side of the equation, not always, but you know, that's definitely. I mean, they sing songs about it. This is like an age-old issue, right? I'm thinking cats in the cradle in my head, right? So um how do we help dads become a part of that process? Because so much of that character development, especially for boys, but also for young girls, comes from that influence of the father in the home and to lead by example.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 32:40

Yeah. What a lot of men need um is for someone in their life that has strong influence to tell them to stop being lazy. Um because when you said uh you said it's easy for moms, I'm glad you said uh the word understand after that. Because a lot of men think, well, this is easy for her because she's at home. I'm the one that has to go to work, and you know, and maybe maybe the mom works as well. But men, the two biggest problems that I see in the in the world of manhood right now is that they are lazy, and and that is what is driving the red pill motions. It's what's driving these guys to go to racist, you know, uh podcasters with beards to teach them how to be a real man and and and things like that. This laziness of I want to be an instant man. I want to be respected instantly. And so they they try to look for ways to to do that quickly. And number two, they want to escape. Uh, because they're lazy, they tend to look for escapism. This is where sports can be a problem. There's nothing wrong with sports in and of themselves, but when they become my way of escape, so that I can just relax for a minute or just stop thinking about all the hard work I've been doing or whatever it is, uh, video games where we have 30, 40, 50-year-old men still playing video games while mommy cooks food for them and calls them to supper while they're still working on, you know, level five, is ridiculous. Um men do not want to grow up. We don't, we don't want to have to do work, um, especially after we get home from work. Um, we're just too soft. And so what they need is a man to get in their life and get in their face and say, when you get home and you're exhausted and you just can't think, you're just you just want to lay on the couch. Um, don't um help your wife. Say, hey, what can I do to help? I see the kids are once again going crazy. Uh, do you need me to to duct tape them down or anything? Do you need me to do me to help you cook something? Do you need me to set the table, something where you're engaged immediately? And this is this is very difficult for men. They think, they think I need some time to calm down, so I need to be in front of the TV for a while, which all always turns into hours upon hours. And so what I have found, uh, especially with men, is we have run out of places to connect with other men. And so um, when guys say, Oh, I've and I, you know, pardon if you've heard this expression, you liked it, but whenever a guy has an anniversary, puts on his social media, oh, I've been married to my best friend for 15 years or whatever, whatever it is, and that's fine if your wife is your best friend. That's fine. That's that's wonderful. But you need male friends, guys. And I don't mean guys that you just talk to us about sports with or a guy you have the same conversation with every Sunday at church. I'm talking about a guy that is in your life who's probably has better character than you that is pushing you. We have lost that. We have lost places for men to do that. The world has oversexualized everything. So any relationship a man has with a man, there's always weirdness because, you know, there's this expectation of homosexuality in our kind in our world today. And so men just don't have relationships with men now. They just they just kind of have these very shallow relationships, and and the only real person they can really talk to is their wife, and they're not even doing that. And so I think to really get men understanding what their responsibility is in the home is to get men in their church. This is from my opinion, I think men in the church need to start bonding with each other and really holding each other accountable for the responsibilities they have in the home. They need to challenge them and say, if you have video games in your home, throw them out. If you if you have social media that you feel you have to look at while you're home, then get rid of it and challenge them. Because if the wife does it, he's gonna be, he's gonna say, Oh, she's just nagging me because she wants, you know, I'm doing my best. And at least, but they need men to say, grow up, put the toys away and engage with your family. And I think if we start having men ha having those kind of relationships, it will make a difference.

Sandy Zamalis 37:20

That's so cool that you said that. So so my husband, um, he went to VMI, so at Virginia Military Institute, and probably f at least four times in this last year, we've ended up at these events. And um one of the events was for an uh brother rat who was an artist who was having his artwork displayed at one of like a Virginia Hist uh War Museum or something like that in Richmond. And almost every talk that came at that event talked about mentorship. And it was just fascinating. And that craving that I think especially men, not women have that need for mentorship too, but men really need that mentorship, that reaching down to pull someone forward to get them to see the wisdom that they might be missing in the present moment of their life. Um, it it's come up on more than one occasion this last year. And I was, you know, at the time thinking and praying, like, Lord, what is you trying to, what are you trying to tell me or these people? Why does the mentorship keep coming up in conversations, especially for men? And to have you kind of frame it that way, I think is just really powerful too. It's that discipleship, that mentorship. It's not about, you know, there's that holding accountable, but it's because I love you and I want to see you have the most fruit in your life versus letting you, you're missing it. To have someone say, You're missing it. Wake up.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 38:53

Yeah, and think about what this does to your wife. If you're if you're not, if you don't have a mentor in your life as a man that is the one pushing you, then who's gonna push you?

unknown 39:04

Yeah.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 39:04

You're gonna put that on your wife to be the one to to keep track of what you got to improve on and then have to go through the work of of trying to pull you along like you're some child. I'll tell you what, um the worst thing that has happened to men is they've been given permission to be children in their home. And so the wife really does feel like this is another child I have to deal with. And and the amount of pressure and and um stress that you put your wife under when she has yet another child to deal with and she can't depend on you because you're not growing, because you're not being pushed unless she does it. And then she again, that just makes her feel like she's your mom. And you cannot you cannot have a relationship of love and respect that way.

Dr. Amy Moore 39:54

So then what is the trickle-down effect of this idea um of having having someone speak into your life to mentor you as a man? Um, what does that then do for your children? How does that um benefit your relationship with your children?

Dr. Renton Rathbun 40:22

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, the guy that mentored me, um, his name his name was uh Robert or Bob. Um and what Bob did was he guided me in a way that where he was teaching me to teach, if I can put it that way. Um he wouldn't just tell me things that I need to improve in my life, he would tell me how I need to explain this to the next guy and the next guy. And and what I found was most of what I was hearing from my mentor, I was passing on to my children. Um, because what I found I was doing was I wasn't just raising my children, now I'm mentoring them. Um, I think we, and this was the big one of the biggest mistakes I made with my oldest son, was there is a standard of behavior that I was I was sure he needed to have. And yeah, there were of course we all feel that way about our kids, that there's a standard of behavior. But I felt that uh the the fear of God must be uh thrust upon them to get to that behavior. And so my you know, my my oldest son saw a lot of angry dad or dissatisfied dad. Um a dad that was was disappointed at him most of the time uh because he just can't get it right. And and with that kind of discipline, does it make the kid behave for a while? Yeah, uh you won that battle, but you lost their heart. And what I realized was uh training your child isn't a matter of mere discipline, it's a matter of mentorship. How am I helping them along? How am I how am I helping them see that I am worthy for you to want to be like me? Um and how do you do that? Well, kids respond to love really well. And I found, you know, I with my oldest, I was discipline, discipline, discipline. And every once in a while I had little moments of of tenderness. And what I needed was a lot of moments of tenderness and a few moments of discipline. And, you know, and I don't even know if I've if I've corrected that well enough with my two littles, but it's something I'm always thinking about that I'm not trying to merely train them up, I'm trying to mentor them up. And and that takes a level of love because you're not trying to train them because you're frustrated with their behavior. You're trying to train them because you love them that much. And and I'll tell you, for women, uh, that probably doesn't sound too eye-opening or astonishing, but I'll tell you what, men that listen to this know what I'm talking about because we rarely discipline out of love. We barely know what that means. We lie and say we're doing it, but we don't. Um, usually we're disciplined disciplining out of frustration, no matter what that discipline looks like. But as a mentor, the discipline looks different because you're trying to you're trying to say, look at me, do what I'm doing. Do you see what I did here? I want you to try it. And when you fail, I am gonna ask you to try again. And it's because I need you to be This way because I know this is what's best for you. It's not don't embarrass me again. And that the difference between those two kinds of training your children is so different. Um and I can tell you from personal experience that that that the the one uh you know disciplining out of frustration makes you feel okay at the time because their their actions change. But man, their hearts get really hard.

Dr. Amy Moore 44:30

So I can't help but draw a parallel here. Um you know I I've seen so many times when people have strained relationships with their earthly father, then that translates to an inability to understand how loving our heavenly father is. And so it it it seems to me that when you can create this kind of relationship between earthly father and earthly child, that then that would help a child see God in a different way, not as a condemning being, but of a loving grace granting.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 45:23

I know that's that's so true in Ephesians chapter one, verse five, or Ephesians chapter five, verse one, um, it says, Imitate uh God, be imitators of God. And you're like, well, what? I'm gonna imitate God. But in chapter four, it tells you to learn from Christ. Learn from Jesus. The truth is in Jesus. And I'll tell you what, you know, um Jordan Peterson, I like some of the stuff he says, but if you don't if you don't have Christ as the model for how I imitate God so that I can show the love of the Father to to my children. Um, if you don't have that, if all you have is good ideas that seem right, that you should make your bed in the morning and all that sort of stuff, you know, yeah, you would have probably a better life, but who cares? Um what you need is that's that's why you know Christianity is so important to me, because if I if I act better in life and I make other people act better in life, what does it matter? But if I'm imitating God because I am I am seeing Christ as my as my model of how to live so that I can show the love of the Father. Because that's what Christ, you know, Christ was God on earth to show the love of the Father to people. And that's why I'm here for my kids. How do I show them the Father? And and I'll tell you what, it is built in us. And I don't care what anyone says, it's built in us. Our relationship with our father is absolutely foundational because the relationship that never had a beginning, the relationship that was here long before anything was ever around was between a father and son. God the Father never started being a father, and God the Son never started being the son. So you have this father-son relation that is a kind of template of universal truth that kind of rings through all of creation. And so, you know, men, if you understood how important your role is at the home, no matter what the situation is, whether you're divorced or whether you're still married or whatever it is, the weight that's on your shoulders, boy, you need help. You need uh mentorship, you need to have to be plugged in because if you try to do it alone, man, good luck.

Sandy Zamalis 48:04

I love how you talk about the dichotomy between um your two children sets that are so far apart. Can you can you talk about how as a dad have you addressed some of the pieces that maybe you wish you had done differently with your older son that you're now doing differently with your younger, and they're watching you and kind of those changes that you're making. What does that look like?

Dr. Renton Rathbun 48:34

One of the things, and I I um is and I don't know if this can be quantified into an activity or not, but um I remember with my first son, I was just constantly impatient with getting to the next day or the next year because something out there I need to get done, and I was just impatient all the time. I never stopped to think this is an important moment. I need to enjoy this, I need to remember this, I need to enhance this moment with my kids. So, you know, with my with my oldest son, we would be, we would throw the ball around outside in our front yard, and you know, sometimes he'd have a good catch and I'd be encouraged, and sometimes he'd uh he'd you know stumble it around and you know, it was just catch. And as we're playing catch, I'm thinking, ah, I got about a hundred other things I gotta do as soon as we're done playing catch. Um, and this is this is the brain problem that a lot of guys have. Um there's they're thinking about the next day, they're thinking about what they gotta do, they're thinking it's almost to the point where you kind of feel like I'm doing a good job because I'm totally wasting my time right now with this kid, you know, with my kid, and I love him, you know, but I need to get through this this catch thing so I can get back because I still got to do that email I didn't get done yet. And that's how your your brain is constantly thinking because you think this is always gonna be this way. It's your kid will never grow up, they'll never leave the home, this moment will never go away, and it does, and it's fast. And so I learned with my two littles, there are times where we're doing something, and it's pretty mundane. I mean, you know, where I'm pretending to, you know, to fight them or throw them around our trampoline or whatever it is, but in that moment, I'm thinking, this is important. This is, I need to remember this. I'm when I'm, you know, when they're leaving the home, I'm gonna remember this moment because these are the important moments. And when you start, when you start getting into that habit of re of thinking that way, you start thinking that way even in teacherable, teachable moments. Um, that helps that helps start mentoring your kid because if you're not even if you're not even aware of the moments that are that are vital to the to their memories, um, you're not going to be able to be aware enough to know how to take advantage of them, to take advantage of those moments. And so one of the biggest things I've done is, you know, even though I hate board games, I hate them.

Dr. Amy Moore 51:16

And musicals. You hate board games, and you hate musicals.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 51:20

I hate musicals. I am just a Debbie Downer. Uh, but it's uh but I when I'm sitting there playing that board game, you know, we have this moment and everyone's laughing and we're having this good time. And at that moment I think this is important. I need to remember this. I need to I need to help my kids know this. And so afterwards say, now wasn't that fun? Didn't we have a good time? I love playing games with you. And and help them see that you enjoyed it. Uh, this is another thing that men have a hard time with is we'll enjoy something and tell no one. We'll we'll see our wife and think, wow, she looks great today, but we don't tell we don't tell her. Not because we don't want to, but I don't need to tell her that. Um and we just don't think about that. And so even making my communication different, where I'm telling my kid, I had a good time, I love playing games with you. And and, you know, when we start thinking that way, they start remembering things in a different way. Um, because even with my oldest, we had a lot of good times with my oldest. But he'll, you know, he'll remember, he's like, well, I just remember that, you know, as a kid, he'll remember things, but there a lot of them are really negative. And I think, oh man, is that all he's remembering? I mean, there's lots of other good things, but they remember those negative things. And so helping them think it out because you're verbalizing this is a good moment. We need to enjoy, you know, I you need to know I love doing this with you, and and reinforcing that I think is so important.

Dr. Amy Moore 52:59

Yeah, and I think that language doesn't come naturally. Like you have to be intentional and uncomfortable.

Sandy Zamalis 53:10

You have to be willing to be uncomfortable, right?

unknown 53:12

Yeah.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 53:13

Oh man, yeah.

Sandy Zamalis 53:14

One of my favorite stories, and thankfully my in-laws do not listen to this podcast, so they will never know that I told this story. But um, I remember uh being on the phone with my husband's father. Um, and they lived in like Pittsburgh area. We were in the like South Central PA area, and uh we're on the phone, and I to this day it's probably the funniest story I still remember because it kind of epitomizes everything that you're talking about. Because my father-in-law on the phone to my son, his grandson, said, All right, I'll see you in a couple weeks. I don't say I love you over the phone.

Speaker 4 53:55

What is that? How hard would it have been to just say, I love you, I love you in a few weeks. But no.

Dr. Amy Moore 54:04

Okay. I can I can top that story. So my husband and I had been dating about a year and a half, and I had already told him that I loved him. And I'm a firm believer that if you love somebody, you should let them know, right? Like people should know what that feels like to be loved, even if he wasn't ready to tell that to me. I was fine with that. So we're dancing at his sister's wedding, slow dancing at his sister's wedding. And I said, you know, I think you must love me. I just don't understand like why you haven't been able to express that. And he stops dancing and he looks at me and he goes, Fine, I love you, but don't expect to hear it very often. And we've been married almost 30 years, and he tells me all the time, like all the time. But it's like he had to break the seal on it.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 55:01

Yeah, right.

Dr. Amy Moore 55:02

He had to, he had to say it that way in this really uncomfortable first-time way before he was able to try again. And it and those were few and far between the beginning, right? I would hear it once every couple of months, and it gradually got more and more and more because it became more comfortable. It became like muscle memory then. It felt okay and better and more natural. And so I think to come full circle to what what you're saying, like you have to be willing to break the seal on that discomfort and try it and practice it.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 55:40

Yeah, that's so true. Because I I'll tell you, you know, a lot of a lot of us men um who are Gen Xers anyway, um grew up with boomers as parents. And so, you know, the boomers saying I love you is your mom's job. Um, you know, you know I love you because you've eaten like every day in my house uh when you were growing up and you had a roof over your head. Uh this is how I show love. Um saying it um was difficult. And I think there I think there's a good side to that and a bad side to that. The good side of it is it's hard to say because we mean it, if I can put it that way. Um, which is good. Uh the bad part is we are taught that um saying something that makes you feel um exposed uh is not manly. Um and and trust me, I am not one of those guys that are trying to teach all the all men to be effeminate so that they can over-correct what's been happening. But I do believe that we don't love our kids enough and our wives enough if we are refraining from that because it makes us feel uncomfortable. Um, then you are being soft. You're so soft on yourself because you don't want to feel that discomfort. Love them enough to be uncomfortable and say it. Um because I, you know, I didn't hear it much. Um it's just, you know, it's not a big deal. Uh but as I'm dealing with my kids, you know, I have a 25-year-old, and now whenever he leaves my house, he says, I love you, Dad. Um, and he usually says it first. And he's very comfortable saying that. Um, and even though I say it back, I notice it every time I say it. Um, it hasn't become, you know, just, oh, love you. Uh, but I think about it. I think about the fact that he said, I love you, dad. I think about the fact of, you know, my guilt of all my mistakes of being a dad and thinking that he still loves me. Um, I think about all those emotions hit me every time he says it. And to say it back still is uncomfortable to me because I feel so many different feelings of guilt and love and all these different things that saying it back, I almost I caught myself the other day where I almost didn't even say it because a bunch of other stuff was happening, and it would have been fine if I didn't, but I thought, no, I gotta say it. He needs to know that I love him. And it's an effort, but it's not an effort because I don't love him. It's an effort because I do love him. Because it is true, it makes it uncomfortable. It's just the men have to be uncomfortable and be I mean, it takes a man to do something that is hard. So do something hard, men.

Dr. Amy Moore 58:47

So what's your advice on how to find your circle of men that can speak into your life? How do you find a mentor? I mean, I know there are men's groups at many churches. In fact, my husband and I joke that um he's he likes to serve on security. And so we'll say, are you going to church today or are you going to the church today? Because when you're on security, you're at the church, but you're not actually in church. Right? You're like outside talking to the other guys. And those are really great connections, right? Like he has so much so much joy in those conversations um with those other men. But um that's not the deep stuff that you're talking about. So where do you find that?

Dr. Renton Rathbun 59:36

Yeah, I think I think the best place to find to find a good mentor is at church, but it's not with the person you think. Um most men, because we watch, we've watched so many movies in our lives where you see these um, you know, these friend movies where these two guys are such good good friends, and you know, most of us Gen Xers grew up with the with the show friends and um and how I met your mother and all these different all this different media teaches you you need someone that's your age that you can identify with and you know, you're going through the same struggles and all that stuff. I think that's baloney. I think Titus III um or Titus II is very clear to us that we need to find an older person. And so um you find someone older than you who is probably has higher standards than you, and you're gonna feel guilty because there's some things that you probably can do and are fine, but in their view, they don't like that. And you think that should be a turnoff, and I'm saying no, you should find someone with higher standards who's an older man that has lived a faithful life. When you find that, he doesn't have to be this, you know, super smart, doesn't have to have a PhD. He has to be a man that's older, with wisdom, who's lived a faithful life, and learn from him. And and you and sometimes, and so and this is what happened to me. I got so desperate, I searched for it. Don't wait till you're desperate and your life is falling apart and you need someone. Start now. Find a man that you respect who's wise, faithful, and say, could we meet off and on um so we could talk? And I can tell you what my struggles are, and you can tell me what I need to do, um, and and get him involved in your life. And it will be hard because it's gonna take time. You're gonna it's gonna take time out of your day, out of your free time to meet with this guy. It's gonna be hard because he's gonna tell you to do stuff that won't be easy to do, and then he'll hold you accountable for for it, and it'd be so much easier not to have the guy in your life. Um, and you need that. That's exactly what you need.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:01:53

So as your mentor is helping you think critically about the choices that you're making as a husband, as a parent, um the words that you're using. What what are those scripts that you can pass on to parents that want their kids to start thinking critically about their worldview and how to assess whether what they're hearing from the world aligns with worldview. What are like what are some of those words to use? Because I know a lot of parents are like, where do I start?

Dr. Renton Rathbun 1:02:34

Yeah. I would I would I have three words. Um I I usually talk when I do my talks, I talk about the tetherball model. Uh the tetherball model was invented uh by me because I I'm not imaginative. And so sometimes when I'm talking to you know Gen Zers, I have to tell them what a tetherball is. Um, but we all know what it is, right? It's that pole with this with the rope onto a ball, and you hit the ball. Um when I'm talking to parents, I say this is what you need to understand. The ball is like beliefs. Everyone has beliefs. It's what everyone's interested in. It's a shiny thing that everyone moves towards. And it is important for you to start having conversations with your kids to see what they believe. Now that's a very different question than what they're supposed to say and what you know, how they repeat what you believe. But getting to what they believe about the world is is very difficult because they want to please you, hopefully, or they want to get through that conversation, or they just want to be have peace. Um, and that's the hardest thing about even with little kids like my kids. Um, if I ask them questions about what they believe about the world, they're going to try and think about what I want to hear. Um, so having conversations that get to what they believe about the world, and then ask them, well, how do you know it's true? That's the second word, true. Like on a tether ball, you have that pull. A pull doesn't move, it's cemented into the ground. You want your truth to be that way, something that's cemented and doesn't move, it's the same for everybody. But that's different than a belief, because a belief is something I have kind of um deduced from this poll. The biggest thing that the world is missing right now, uh, because you go to social media, you see everything people believe. Uh, you see beliefs everywhere. People vomit their beliefs out all over social media, and they're very passionate about it. They're very passionate, you got to be passionate. And they're passionate because they think it's true. It's like everything I said is true. Only an idiot would disagree with me. And so um, everyone's sure about their beliefs because they believe they're true. The thing that we're missing is we have not learned how to justify our beliefs. So, on a tether ball, the word tether, we use that word a lot, like, you know, this is tethered to that, or this idea is tethered to this bigger idea. We use that because that's what the rope does. The rope holds the ball to that pole, just like justifying your belief is a way of tethering your belief to something you know is true. And so, you know, when you start thinking that way, you're automatically giving them a template that truth is not something I get to invent. Truth has something I have to take my beliefs and tie it back to. Where where do I find truth? What's something that's solid, that is true for everybody? And it doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, it's true. Where do you find that? Um, you know, as a Christian, I find that in in scripture, in the Bible. Um, and so, you know, what I'm trying to do with my kids is like, what do you believe? Well, how do you, you know, base, how do you base, you know, where does that come from? Where are you getting that idea? Um, how do you know that's true? Um, where do you get the idea of where truth comes from and all that? Sort of stuff. And it starts getting them in the habit of realizing belief isn't just true. I have to defend it. So it means a belief isn't the true part. The belief is what I've deduced from what's true. Well, then that's a different question. What's true? And so when you start when the kids start thinking that way, they're with the tether ball, they're thinking, they're not thinking any longer of I just know. Um, you make them tie it back. And with a lot of young people, they're tying it back to an experience they've had. Um, I believe this because, and when you when you ask because they say, Well, I have a friend that did this, or you know, a long time ago, I did this, and this other person said that, and that's why. And it comes down to an experience. And you ask them, Well, does your personal experience um is that the truth that everyone should now learn about your personal experience so they know what's true? And they go, No, that's just my truth. And you start realizing, they start realizing I can't justify something that's not tied to anything. And that helps them start getting to a point where I know how to start assessing my world or evaluating things. Um, when I'm watching a movie, even when I'm watching wicked, I can ask myself, you know, uh, is, you know, what's that how do the in the first one, um, they say, is wickedness something you're born with, or is it something that's thrust upon you? You know, they kind of steal from Shakespeare a little bit. And um, and you ask, well, is that the right question? Where do you get the idea that those are your only two options? Or if you come to a conclusion that, like in the movie where they say evil is thrust upon you, or wickedness is thrust upon you, otherwise you're a pretty good person, where do you get that idea? Who told you that? What, you know, is there a is there a place you can turn to that's outside of the belief that that was deduced from? Um and what you usually find is no, people just assume it because they don't want to believe they're a bad person. And that's not good enough. You have to have something bigger than that. And that helps people move beyond their experiences to something to something more solid, like truth is supposed to be.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:08:19

That was a whole bunch of wisdom all wrapped into a really cool analogy.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 1:08:25

Yeah, I don't know how to trademark the the the uh the the model, um, the tetherball model. I don't know how to do that. I have to get a lawyer or something to t to trademark it. So right now you can just steal it if you want.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:08:40

All right. Um so where can our listeners find more from you?

Dr. Renton Rathbun 1:08:46

Um you can go to rentonrathbun.com. Uh just make sure you spell wrath bun right. Uh some people want to say wrathburn, and so I always tell them don't burn the bun. It's a wrath bun. Yeah. See, now we'll be with you forever. So just go to rentonrathbun.com. You'll find a lot of material there, everything from talks I've done to my podcast, the Rentonrath show, um, as well as more information about uh me and things like that. And um and uh what else? Oh, and and uh my podcast can be found pretty much anywhere that you do your podcasting. Uh we're everywhere, like a fungus.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:09:31

Um actually, your your podcast is super entertaining and insightful and intelligent all at the same time.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 1:09:39

Thank you. Yeah, we uh they try to pretty it up as best as we can. Uh but yeah. And well, another thing that's really helpful is you bring on guests. Uh so you're not just listening to my to me flap my lips the whole time. You got actually people that know what they're saying, so that's always nice too.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:09:57

Well, the interesting thing about listening to you is you'll you'll give an opinion and I'll say, Yeah, I'm not really sure I agree with that. And then you'll expand on said opinion, and then I'll go, okay, maybe I do agree with that. And then you'll keep talking and I'll go, Well, I don't know. I might want to push back on that. So it really makes it made me think as I listened to you. And I appreciate being made to think.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 1:10:24

Oh, good. And I'm not sure. So that's the point of it, I hope.

Sandy Zamalis 1:10:27

Yeah, I really, I really feel your heart for men. I you had I I don't know if Amy caught it, but like I you had me almost in tears twice this whole podcast. I was like, okay, I could just feel your heart on this issue and really wanting to make sure our dads out there hear it and and get it and don't miss it.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 1:10:50

That's right. Yeah, there's there's so much out there, especially in the homeschooling world, but even in the podcast world, you have you have a lot of podcasts that uh the men just don't pay attention to. But then when you see what they are paying attention to, you know, the Joe Rogans of the world or uh, you know, these red pill guys that are, you know, all about you know trying to be a man, you know, taking either taking shortcuts or just defining manliness absolutely wrong. Um it gives them some kind of sense of of community, but it's all fake. And they need to have real community with real men in person. Um, otherwise they're just going to live in their head again, and they they gotta get out of there.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:11:36

Yeah, um, so Dr. Tim Clinton, the president of the American Association of Christian Counselors, uh I don't know if you've ever had any interactions with him or followed any of his work, but um fatherhood is one of his passions to talk about. And I mean, he associates, I mean, he digs into the research um, you know, about crime and the absence of fathers in that home. And um, and so you maybe you guys should get on the show. He has a podcast, you have a podcast, y'all should talk on a podcast.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 1:12:12

Yeah. Well, in March, uh, we're coming out with a podcast um with with Rick Altizer, the director of Show Me the Father. It was a uh documentary that was on a while ago. He's coming out with a new movie about um following women who had issues with their father. And so we'll be interviewing him in March um on my show, and then the very next week uh will the new movie will come out. So um, yeah, it's a it's a big passion.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:12:42

All right. Well, we need to close the show. You've been with us a really long time. We've taken up a lot of your time. Um but we really appreciate you taking time out of your schedule um to bless our listeners with your wisdom and wit and all of the insights that people really need to chew on. So thanks for being with us today.

Dr. Renton Rathbun 1:13:04

Well, thank you for having me. It was very brave of you. I appreciate it.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:13:08

Well, we're nothing if not brave around here. Uh so we're gonna put those links that you shared um in the show notes uh for our listeners so that they can find more of you. Uh listeners, if you want more from us, you can find us on social media at the Brainy Moms. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on YouTube at the Brainy Moms Podcast. Obviously, you're listening, so you can find us everywhere um else. And uh you can find Sandy at the Brain Trainer Lady on TikTok. If you want to dig into how to improve cognitive skills, she loves to demo all of that. So look, we love it that you choose to spend this hour with us every week. We hope that you feel a little smarter after this episode. We'll catch you next time.