Parenting Through Playfulness | Dr. Kim Van Dusen

Have you tried parenting through playfulness? "Play" isn't usually what we think of as our kid melts down when it’s time to leave the park, ignores us at clean-up time, or suddenly “can’t remember” the three things we just asked them to do. But maybe we should try it! On this episode of The Brainy Moms Podcast, Dr. Amy and Sandy talk with Dr. Kim Van Dusen, a licensed marriage and family therapist and registered play therapist known as The Parentologist. We talk about a calmer path that actually works in real homes with real schedules.

We dig into what “parenting through play” really means and why it’s less about long pretend-play sessions and more about tiny, strategic moments of playfulness that change the whole emotional tone. Dr. Kim explains how she blends play therapy, solution-focused therapy, and positive behavior interventions and supports to help families build better behavior, deeper connection, and clearer communication. You’ll hear practical ideas you can use today, including micro “play pockets” that reduce power struggles without adding more work.

We also unpack what’s underneath misbehavior with her ABC framework: avoidance, boredom, connection, and the need for power. From tantrums and transitions to lying and screen time limits, we focus on lowering the temperature, validating big feelings, and setting firm boundaries without getting stuck in tug-of-war. Dr. Kim shares simple tools like playful prompts, storytelling strategies that uncover the “why,” and parent self-regulation techniques that help you stay steady when your child can’t.

If you want more cooperation with less conflict, press play, then subscribe, share this with a parent friend, and leave a review so more families can find these playful parenting tools. What’s the hardest moment in your day right now: transitions, mealtime, homework, or screens?

ABOUT US:
The Brainy Moms is a parenting podcast hosted by cognitive psychologist Dr. Amy Moore and Sandy Zamalis. Dr. Amy and Sandy have conversations with experts in parenting, child development, education, homeschooling, psychology, mental health, and neuroscience. Listeners leave with tips and advice for helping parents and kids thrive. If you love us, add us to your playlist and follow us on social media! 

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Dr. Amy Moore 0:00

Hi, smart moms and dads. Welcome to this episode of the Brainy Moms Podcast, brought to you today by Learning NarX Brain Training Centers. I'm Dr. Amy Moore here with Sandy Zimalis. And Sandy and I just want to remind you that if you want more from us, you can sign up for our free monthly newsletter at theBrainymoms.com. It's full of tips and information about all of the topics that we talk about on our show. Just like let's all become better parents together. Totally free, brainymoms.com. Don't miss out. And now the conversation that we're going to have today is with Dr. Kim Van Dusen, the Parentologist. Let me tell you a little bit about her in case you don't know who she is yet. Dr. Kim is a mom of two and the author of Parenting Through Play: Creative Strategies for Building Better Behavior, Deeper Connection, and Posit Communication. She's also the CEO, owner, and founder of The Parentologist, a family and lifestyle brand about everything parenting with a therapeutic twist. She has a master's in TV broadcasting and marital and family therapy, as well as her doctorate in psychology. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist, registered play therapist, professor, public speaker, blogger, and host of the Parentologist Podcast. She's also a writing contributor for many publications, including Parents, New York Post, Genius of Play, LA Parent Magazine. She's had appearance on national television for Dr. Phil's Merit Street Media and can regularly be seen on Fox Five, CBS8, and others. Dr. Kim also owns a private practice that specializes in working with children and families. We are super excited to have this conversation with her today. Please help me welcome Dr. Kim, the Parentologist. So, Dr. Kim, we're super excited that you're here with us. Um, I love your platform. I love that um name the parentologist. Please talk to us about how you chose that, why you chose that. I want to know a little bit about the history of the parentologist.

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 2:00

You know, it's actually a little bit of a fun story, I suppose, but I was thinking of branding my name for for quite some time, you know, making a brand for myself and, you know, what should it be? And I mean, I this was, you know, 10 years plus when blogging was a really big thing. So everyone kept telling me, you should, you know, create a blog and that's how you'll get your name out there. And I thought, okay, well, I need a website then. And so I was, you know, I had just become a mom. Um, my daughter was only two at the time, and I had just gotten my doctorate in psychology. And I thought, what a cool way would it be to come from a personal and professional perspective and kind of marry the two, you know, from a parent perspective and also from a psychology perspective. And so I was thinking psychologist, and then all of a sudden it just came to me and I was looking up other parenting websites too, and there was someone called, I think, the mommyologist or something. I thought, well, that one's already taken. But I liked the ring of it. And so I just happened, I mean, this was months in the making. I had dozens and dozens of names over a very long period of time. And I said, I'm gonna look it up. And so I looked up parentologist, you know, so I mean like a parenting expert, if you will, and it wasn't taken. The website domain was open. It didn't pop up on the internet at all. And I thought, this is perfect. Because then it's not just for moms, it's more inclusive for other parents and caregivers and things. And so the parentologist was born and I grabbed the the domain and I trademarked the name and uh the logo at the time. And, you know, here are here we are almost 11 years later, going on 11 years of being the parentologist.

How The Parentologist Began

Dr. Amy Moore 3:30

Well, and you have, I mean, hundreds of thousands of followers now. It's such a sticky name, right? It's a sticky uh trademark, uh, you know, I'm sure. And so, like it certainly captured our attention. And so we're excited that you got to come here and talk about it. And thank you for having me.

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 3:50

I'm excited to be here.

Sandy Zamalis 3:51

Yeah. It sounds like common sense, but um, you really help parents understand the importance of play, um, especially uh just parenting through play. So let's kind of kick us off and talk about that and what that means to you.

Why Play Therapy Became Her Niche

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 4:07

Yeah, absolutely. You know, when I started my doctoral program, you know, in in going towards, you know, just what I wanted to do with my doctorate when I got it, you know, I always knew I wanted to be a professor and I did that for 10 years and I loved it. I taught parent child therapy, I taught play therapy and some other courses along the way. And I loved it. And my other goal when even back then, this was back in, I think I graduated in 2013, and you know, I always wanted to write a book. I just wanted to be an author. So I thought that's what I want to do, you know. And so I kind of always thought that, you know, having the the DR in front of my name or having those credentials at the end of my name would help, you know, establish credibility, would, you know, have help establish that that clout that would hope hopefully people take me seriously enough to buy a book written written by, you know, by me. But at the time, I was very enamored when I first started my psychology journey with the book uh Men Are From Mars, Women Are from Venus by Dr. John Gray. And I always thought I was going to be a couples therapist. That was my goal. That's what I started the program thinking I was going to do. But when I was in the program, I was single, never been married. Uh, I wasn't a parent. And as much as I educationally could comprehend what it was, what it would be like to be in a couples, you know, or marital relationship, I didn't have that firsthand experience. And I remember speaking with a couple once in session, and they had been married for I think 20 years. They had three, you know, very older children. Um, and they turned to me and they said, you know, we love your energy, we love all of the new knowledge you're bringing into our in our relationship, but you really don't know what it's like. I mean, they were on the edge of divorce and they had infidelity, they had all sorts of things going on. And at the time I tried to really, you know, establish myself and I'm older and I'm wiser and I'm this and that, you know. And it, and now looking back, I think, gosh, I really probably did that couple a disservice because I really didn't know what it was like. Because I'm 16, you know, years married now, and I have two kids myself, and I'm like, oh yeah, I had no clue. No clue. So that being said, I just I was on this journey and I just thought I need to, I need to figure out what kind of therapist I was gonna be. A lot of my colleagues were going into all sorts of different specializations and and niches. And and finally I took my first plate therapy class and I fell in love and I thought this is it. It just instantaneously, and this was even before I I was married and had kids myself, but just as a therapist, I thought, oh, well, I've been missing this my whole life. You know, working with couples, working with adults, it was very draining emotionally for me. It was very difficult for me. I was coming home exhausted, bringing home their their issues and challenges that they were going through. And when I was with kids, it it almost gave me more energy. It gave it invigorated me. And, you know, and when I was in the therapy room, our sessions, you know, were quick. I felt like, oh, it's already over because it was just I was having so much fun playing with them, learning about them and supporting them that I thought this is this is my niche. This is what I've been waiting for. And so I just started taking more play play therapy classes and I had to go to a different university to get those. And there was a certain number you need to become a rich play therapist. And um, so then when I became a mom, I started implementing those same type of um strategies and so forth with my own kids. And then, you know, here we're all these, all these years later, finally becoming an author. And my book uh appropriately is named Parenting Through Play. So it's just very full circle for me.

Dr. Amy Moore 7:31

I love that. Yeah, I had a very similar uh conversation once. I was um teaching teachers in a like doing a full-day workshop, and um, I was so excited, right, about this new curriculum. And anyway, um, one of them looked at me and said, You don't have kids of your own, do you? And I said, No, but I have a master's degree in early childhood education. And so I'm telling you this will work. I literally said that, right? This was before I was a psychologist. Um, and I look back at that and just cringe. Yep. Well, no, I didn't have any kids of my own at the time. I was newly married. Um, anyway, and I guess I had such an idealistic outlook on how this was going to work in the classroom and that these teachers needed to listen to me. But anyway, uh, so I totally related to that as you told that story. Um so it's interesting to me when I look at the title of your book, Parenting Through Play, um, and and read that you're a registered play therapist, I automatically go to um the counseling environment. I automatically think, okay, well, play therapy is for kids who need counseling. It's just the way that we reach them. They might have trauma. Talk to us about how this is relevant to home life. Like, how do you bring these strategies, this theory, these ideas from the therapy room? How do you bring it into everyday life with parents?

Bringing Therapy Tools Into Home Life

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 9:04

Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know, I always like to tell people too, and I'm sure you both know this, but for anyone who's listening out there, that, you know, I feel a little pigeonholed, if you will, with my with the title of my book, because um it is about play. Play is the underlying foundation of the book, yes. Um, but it's so much more. And most of the book isn't even about play, which is interesting. Um, when you really dive in. So um, so first and foremost, let me just start by saying that in the book, um, I use three evidence-based practices, um, you know, all backed up by research, one of them being play therapy, which again is the foundation of the book, the other one being solution-focused therapy, and the other one being positive behavior interventions and supports. Again, all evidence-based programs, you know, research-based in schools, in therapy rooms, and in home more in the home life. And those three have never been combined before, which is really what makes the book special and unique, is it's a modern take on parenting based on these therapeutic modalities and perspectives, um, but adapted to to a home life for it for a parent or a caregiver. So those combined, like I said, have never been combined before like this, um, are really the trifecta to get to what the subtitle is about, you know, creating a deeper connection, um, growing better um communication and getting more positive and better behavior. And so I do take what I've learned over the years, um, whether it was in grad school, all my, you know, almost 20 years of being a therapist, a family therapist, working with parents, families, and children, and bringing those ideas um into adapting it into the home world. So, you know, things that things that we learned as a play therapist. You know, I remember the first one, first class I took, it was like play therapy 101. And, you know, they said the very first thing you needed to do as a therapist is establish trust and safety with your client. If you don't have trust and safety, you're gonna lose the child. They're they're not gonna be willing to talk to you, they're not gonna be willing to play with you, they're they're just they're gonna be withholding and um, you know, not willing to be a participant in the in the therapy room. And so I start the book by saying that to parents. You know, if you don't have a trusting, safe foundation in your relationship, then your kids probably won't be listening to you. They won't be following your directions. They may end up being defiant, they may end up giving the power struggles and things like that. And so I give parents the tools on how to start that first and be there first. And then um I give a lot of, like I said, a lot of um more behavioral strategies, utilizing play in some ways um on how to again minimize those power struggles, defiance, tantrums, um, all the fun things that, you know, our children um give to us as a gift as a parent. So um, but I use, like I said, uh more than just play in the book to um to help parents get through those tough times and a very quick, practical how-to-type method versus something theoretical. I remember reading those books in grad school thinking, gosh, it's just so scientific and theoretical. Like, but how do I actually use it in real life? Like, you know, give me an example, like just tell me what to do and I'll do it. So that's what I really wanted to tell parents in this book is I I made that because I felt like that was missing in the world of parenting, of just, you know, really giving some simple strategies to use in the heat of the moment when their child's going through, you know, A, B, C, or D.

Sandy Zamalis 12:25

Do you think a lot of that change has come just from uh having two parents working in the household and just not having that kind of caregiver time that maybe we've had in in ages past? Yeah, I think there's definitely some part of that.

Micro Play Pockets For Daily Cooperation

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 12:41

I mean, I think we're in our current culture, we're we're dealing with a lot of times two working parents, as you mentioned. I think we're also pushing up against technology. Technology is such a forefront of our culture right now. I mean, even if you look, I just saw a preview yesterday, a trailer for Toy Story Five, you know, Disney's Toy Story Five. And the whole premise of the movie is about um tablets versus toys, right? It's it's about parents being able to push back on the world of technology and kids, you know, being so integrated with tablets and screen time and television and we streaming everything and everything at our fingertips. And now we've been cell phones. I know kids are getting cell phones in second, first, second, third grade. And, you know, play isn't as valued or priority as I think it used to be when we didn't have any of those things. And, you know, we could just play in the backyard for hours until dark or play in our neighborhood and those things, and some of it's safety-based too. I think there's a lot of fear and anxiety these days with parents, um, you know, letting their kids out, you know, riding their bikes in the neighborhood till till dark, you know, that just doesn't happen as much as it used to, I think, just because of the the way our our world is, you know, and the things were going on in our world. So I think it's I think it's up against a lot of things. Um, and I think media is a big part of it. And I also think there's a a shift in our parenting world and the styles that we actually parent in. And I think, and I'll speak for myself in my own generation, you know, being raised by a baby boomer, even some in the generation X, um, parenting space is it was very much you do as you're told. If you want to cry, go to your room. You know, I it it was very, I'm the adult, you're the you're the child, and you do as I say. And I think a lot of the parents that come from that, um, let's say myself and younger, are pushing back on that a little bit and saying, I didn't like the way I was treated by my parents. And so they, so those parents almost overcompensated and they went into this gentle conscious parenting space that almost um let the children run the show in some respects. And and so where I come from is is kind of meeting in the middle, is where we still need, and I have a whole whole section. I my book is put up into four different sections, one really solely being on like limits, boundaries, you know, things like that. So we so I kind of come in the middle place where yes, you do need limits and boundaries, and those are in and even I I use the word outcomes instead of consequences, but consequences and discipline, those are absolutely important and necessary for a child to uh behave, if you will. Um, but then you also need to come from a compassionate, empathetic perspective, also, where you honor that child and make them feel loved, safe, uh love, safe and seen and heard, right? So it's kind of the middle of it where it kind of marries both of those at the same time and meets parents in the middle to parent really the most effectively.

Dr. Amy Moore 15:42

So, where does this idea of play come in to these interactions?

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 15:48

Um, so basically, um, and this is my favorite part. I can see I just smiled when you asked that question because this is my favorite part about the book. So again, I'm trying to just to um dispel, you know, the myth, uh to debunk the myth that to play with your child means you have to sit on the floor, you know, for 30 minutes to an hour, you know, in a crisscross applesauce and you know, engaging in this active dialogue with your children, you know, playing with dolls, playing with toys, playing with, you know, cars or whatever it is your child's into and with my son, and it's dinosaurs. He's like, Will you play dinosaurs with me? And, you know, he's the T-Rex and I'm the Velociraptor, and we're, you know, actively fighting and talking. And it is it, it can be very exhausting. And like you said, especially if you're and in whether you're a working parent in the home, out of the home, work to me, there's still work at home to be done. You know, I'm I'm sure you both can relate. You know, there's laundry, there's dishes, there's, you know, all sorts of things that, you know, even just doing homework. Like there's so many things in our mental load and on our physical plate that um parenting is just exhausting no matter what, you know, or what we know, what kind of parent you are when it comes to the working space. Um, so I think, you know, a lot of times parents hear the word play and they all just already dismiss it. Like, oh, that's just, I don't have time for that. I don't have the energy for that. I'm not gonna, I I can't play with my child. That's just too much. And so what I try to do in the book is is tell parents you don't have to do that. You really, it just takes these micro play practices. I call them um purple purposeful play pockets of time. You just find these little play pockets of time throughout your day. And it's the it's the language you use, it's the choices you make throughout the day where you kind of sprinkle and play wherever you can and make just your home very fun and playful. Not all the time. Again, there's definitely a time for those limits and boundaries and those discipline, you know, consequences and outcomes, if you will. Um, but there's also those times for the play. So, for example, you know, two quick things. Um, let's say you're you're having a meal with your children. I will, I will have a whole chapter on mealtime because it's so uh prominent in the in the issues that I heard over and over again from clients of my kids won't eat, I have picky eaters. How do I get, you know, them to eat more food and things like that? So something as little as, you know, you set the food on the table, the kids are, I don't want to eat this, this looks gross. They don't want to eat dry it, they're pushing back, and then you're getting frustrated because you spend all that time, you know, preparing the meal and all the things. And um, so just a couple things, and again, I vary just how-to's in the book, but one is just replace the fork with some tongs and have your child eat with tongs that night. It's super playful and fun, and the kids love it and they think, oh my gosh, my mom just gave me tongs to eat with. Like that's so cool. Like that's so fun. And it will help them eat that food, most likely. That's the goal. Um, so just little things you can do like that throughout the day that just changes the atmosphere in the in the a little bit um where it's playful, but you don't really do anything more. There's really not any more time or energy spent on these practices, but it's incorporated in so kids are more likely to comply in eating their food or cleaning up their toys or whatever it is that you want them to do.

Transitions Tantrums And Playful Resets

Sandy Zamalis 18:52

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Dr. Kim Van Dusen 20:18

Yeah, I like that. That's that should have been the title of the book. No. And it's um I we went we went back and forth on the title. I'm not kidding you. The title changed four times before they landed on this. And I think you just had to take it because it had to go to print. Like it was like too late to keep changing it. And they're like, okay, we're all good with it. Um, but it is. It's using playfulness as demons, like said the language that you're choosing to use and you know, turning, turning those moments where you might yell at your child and raise your voice and get frustrated and dysregulated, but instead taking a deep breath, taking a pause and saying, okay, how can I make this situation a little more playful? Because play is how the kids communicate. That's how a child communicates. It's not through talk, it's not through a lecture, it's not through yelling. If you want your child, you know, to if you want to parent effectively and have your child to, let's say, behave and comply um and to, you know, do what you're wanting to listen to and follow directions for, it's really through that play, because that's really the language that they comprehend the most and how they'll they'll respond the best.

Sandy Zamalis 21:21

So can you be a good language builder too, especially if you do it through communication? Um, I saw this one influencer uh recently who is um demonstrating how she does um just silly storytelling games with her kids where she'll say a sentence and then her child has to make up the next sentence. And then, you know, by the time they get to the end, it's this really hilarious story that the kids are involved in. But it's you could do that while making dinner or in the car. It's just that engagement piece. Um making it a game that just makes it super fun and silly uh that helps build that connection.

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 21:58

Or even if you ask your child. To clean up their toys and they're completely ignoring you, which, you know, that's kind of a child's job. Like that's what they do. You know, they push back on boundaries and they don't want to do it. That's preferred activity. If I was a child and I was playing with my toys, I wouldn't want to clean up to go, you know, do something else that I don't really want to do. I mean, that's just that's just life. So instead of, you know, using your words to say, I need you to clean up your toys, you know, you can just get like a banana and hold it up to your like ring ring and you call your child from a banana that you just found on the counter and say, Hey, you know, so and so, can you please pick up your toys for me? Okay, thanks. Bye. You know, like the monk, the monkey needs whatever, you know, depending on your child's age, you you can filter it. My my book can be used anywhere from two to 12. So you really can filter it for the toddlers all the way through elementary school. But it's just like you said, little things like that, that is just incorporated, but that's the language they speak and that's that's what they'll respond to. If you keep telling them to your blue in the face, go clean up your toys and you try to bribe them or punish them and say, okay, if you do this, I'll give you this. Or if you do this, if you don't do this, I'll take this away from you. Like that's that's gonna be going down a wrong path that that is not gonna be good long term. It might work a few times, but it's not really gonna be effective long term. But if you use these playful techniques as they grow, then they'll just respond to you better because they know that you're kind of on their side more than against them.

Dr. Amy Moore 23:15

Can you give our listeners some examples of how to lower the temperature on a meltdown or some obstinate behavior? Or I know you give a great uh you give a great story in the opening of your book, right? Like with where you are trying to get your child to listen and you're so embarrassed because you're, you know, an expert in this and you were able to turn that around through some playful language. Can you just share with our listeners some hey, try this today ideas?

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 23:44

Yeah, absolutely. So, so just going back to what you were describing, the introduction to my book is a time when my child was five, my son was five, and we were leaving kindergarten. We were, you know, at the pickup area and all the kids come out and all the parents are waiting for them. And so they have some playtime and you know, he's five. So, um, so yeah, so he didn't want to go. And it's the same thing that happens, I'm sure parents can relate, whether it's leaving school, whether it's leaving a park. I know that's a big one, like transitions of leaving a park, or like I said, play time to, you know, to clean up or to do a meal time or to do homework or even bath time, like all those transition times can be pretty tough. And so, um, so yeah, so he didn't want to go. And so I did what most parents probably do is their go-tos, is I tried to bribe him and I said, Hey, if you come right now, I'll go on the way home, we'll go to Starbucks and get a cake pop, which usually is he'll say yes to immediately. And he did not. He was like, I don't care about the cake pop. Like, you you get your own cake pop. I'm gonna play with my friends. So, okay. So then I went to the next thing that again, so then I'm getting a little frustrated, you know, I'm getting a little escalated. So I think, okay, he's not listening and not making me upset because we need to go. And so I go to the next thing that just kind of, you know, a lot of parents jump to is the punishment. Okay, well, if you don't come now, I'm gonna take your iPad away for the rest of the day or whatever it is. And again, he didn't care. He I don't care about my iPad. You can take my iPad. I'm gonna play with my friends. Okay. And that's when I really started feeling the heat from the other parents because they knew what I did for a living. They knew that I was a plate therapist and a quote unquote parent expert, and you know, gave advice for a living on this type of stuff. And my own child was not, you know, was being uh defiant, if you will, um, to a certain extent. So then I just tried just to grab him, like, okay, come on, you're just coming with me. And he kind of squirmed out of my hands and ran off. And okay, it got to the point where I was just completely frustrated and embarrassed and all the things when your child isn't listening and following your directions. And of course, then there's parents watching you also, which added to it. So I just I took a moment and again I took a little breath, I paused and I said, How can I make the situation to a playful one? And so I immediately thought, okay, what does he love? He loves trains. And so I just, without even prompting anything, I didn't, I didn't even try to get his attention. I didn't you know, call his name or anything ahead of time. And I just said, All aboard, or I said, choot the train's leaving in a few minutes. And he just turned and immediately stopped and looked at me and said, The train's coming, mommy. I said, Yes, it's gonna be here in just a minute. It'll be right back. And I ran to my car, told the parents to watch him for a minute. I ran to my car, which is across the street, and I came around to this loop area where everyone was standing. And that's when I yelled, All aboard. The train's leaving now. And he immediately, like not even a second, went by where he hopped in the car, put down the window, waved at his friends as we're driving by. Bye, friends, see you tomorrow. And then he said, Mama, will you have the train pick me up every day after school? And and I said, Sure, of course I will, right? And I did it as long as he needed to, which was maybe three or four more times. And then he kind of, you know, we just moved on from it. Um, but we never had a power struggle again. We never had an issue transitioning from one thing into another. So again, if you're at the park, um, you can use the same type of mentality and you can do fun things like uh roar like a tiger or hop on one foot like a bunny, or you know, go as slowly as you can like a sloth if you have some extra time, and doing something fun where the transition to the car is usually the power struggle, but instead turning into just like a play, you said a playful game or something of that sort. Um, or like I said, I love the Tong's idea, a meltdown. If the child's already in a meltdown, one of my go-tos is to get one of those colorful sand timers that kids just love. They love to just look at them, they're very therapeutic, if you will. And um, and you start timing them and you say, okay, this comes from a strategic intervention where you tell them basically to have a tantrum. And you're like, okay, you're there. We're gonna go with it. And so you have five minutes as long until the sand timer runs out. You have five minutes to yell, kick, scream, cry, roll around on the ground, whatever you need to do to get that tantrum out of your body. And then when you're done, we're gonna go get a snack or we're gonna go leave for the grocery store, whatever you're, you know, go play a board game, whatever it is, you're the transition's gonna happen. And so a lot of times they don't even need that full five minutes because you're telling them, you know, get it all out. And they might need a minute or two and then they're they're kind of over it. Um, so instead of buying into the tantrum or punishing them in the middle of the tantrum or trying to have them stop, you know, whatever it is, you just you, you, you lean into it and you say, fine, have the tantrum. You have five minutes to get it all out, and then we're gonna do this. Um, so they know what to expect, you know, when that time's up. And again, a lot of times they don't even need the whole five minutes and then you can move on. So I give lots of very, again, very simple, quick strategies for parents in any caregiver, teachers, therapists, coaches in this book that, you know, help raise children um on how to get through those tough moments more playfully, too. And more peacefully.

Dr. Amy Moore 28:31

Oh, sorry, I was waiting on Sandy sometime. She had this look about her. I don't know. Um, so I want to talk a little bit more about that idea that you're you're holding space for these big behaviors, right? Like that you're saying, hey, this is not gonna rattle me, that it's okay uh for you to express this uh big emotion in the moment. Um do you find that that ever goes on indefinitely?

The ABCs Behind Misbehavior

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 29:05

No. I've never seen that. And again, in 20 years in private practice or just working in schools, I've worked for tons and tons of schools for many, many years, also with all different kids and all different ages. And even with my own children, I've never seen that happen. I think a lot of times, you know, when it comes to strategies, we have to have a lot in our toolbox. We have to have a lot in our back pocket because one thing might work one time and it may not work another. Because then they'll say, I know what you're trying to do, mom. I know you're trying to get, you know, and they might catch on. They're smart, they're very smart children. So, um, so they might push back after, you know, it might work a set, like said a few times. And then after that, they're gonna they're gonna push back on it possibly. And you need something else, you need another tool to bring out. So, um, so I always, you know, say there's lots of things to try, and that's why each chapter has like, you know, 10, 20 different things you can try. Um, and depending on what comes to your mind first, um, and or what your child might like or, you know, buy into, um, that's what you what you need to do. But I've never had a child um need any type of intervention. Or again, even when I talk about having a cool down corner, you know, just to self-regulate. It's not a punitive corner, it's not a something that you get rewarded to go to. It's really just let's cool down, let's do it together. Let's, you know, draw some, you know, draw something on a piece of paper, let's color, let's paint, let's just take some deep breaths, let's listen to some nice music, whatever your child might respond to and need. Um, and even then, they might only need about 10. I the the the biggest meltdown I've ever seen a child have was close to 30 minutes. Um, but they also needed a higher level of care, you know. So I think for for a typical child, for the I would say the everyday child for the most part probably needs less, depending on their age, but probably less than 10 minutes to get regulated and be a baseline again. Um, and then you can move on to whatever the next thing is. And then once they're regulated, then you can have that conversation with them. You know, what what could you have done next time differently, or what could I have done to support you better the next time? Or, you know, and a lot of times my book talks about preventative strategies too. And to prevent those big, I would say prevent the big behaviors. The kids need to have the big feelings, right? Those, those are always validated. The big behaviors are not always, you know, um accepted based on, you know, your own behavioral expectations and roles for for your home and how you're raising your children. Um, but as long as you empathize and validate those feelings and say, but this behavior's not okay, you know, and then you can talk about what they could do differently next time and again, how you could support them better next time too.

Sandy Zamalis 31:28

At the root, where do you see these um power struggles and misbehaviors coming from for kids? Um it's almost I hear you saying you're basically helping parents to stop playing that tug-a-war battle and just be the firm rock to which the child is tethered.

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 31:46

Yeah, I you know, and and I do. I I I know I keep saying this, but I have a whole chapter on that. It's called the ABCs of behavior. And it really dives into you being curious and you being the detective of what's motivating your child's behavior or what's behind it, right? Because usually even just anger, there's so many things like anger is a secondary emotion, um, but it's based on um, you know, the primary emotion might be sadness or anxiety or, you know, whatever it is. And but they're acting angry, but they're not actually angry. They're just sad and they're acting out of, you know, irritability or something like that. So the the four things that usually um, again, to try and prevent the behavior from even happening in the first place, again, not preventing the motion, but prevent preventing that behavior, that maladaptive behavior usually comes from four places. One is the A stands for um avoidance. They want to avoid something. And a lot of times that's the non-preferred activity. That might be the bath, that might be the meal, that might be just whatever it is, getting dressed for school, anything that they don't want to do, that's what they're trying to avoid. So they act up so they can avoid it. So a lot of times in schools, I would see kids, you know, get in trouble at recess because the next period after recess was math and they didn't like math. They weren't good at math, they wanted to avoid it, or they had a big test that day they were scared about. And so they'd act up so they could go to the principal's office and that got them out of the math test. Maybe not forever, but for the moment, they're thinking just, you know, temporary. Um so something like that, but they're avoiding something at home. Um, the B stands for boredom. Now, I am all for kids being born. I think kids, when they are bored, some of the best play comes out of that. Their best creativity and imaginative play comes out of those times. I've seen it with my own children, and it's amazing to see what the things that the games they come up with on their own when they're bored. But when a child is too bored, when they've been neglected for too long, you know, or when they are just kind of left to be on their own without any type of physical or mental stimulation, um, then that's when they can start getting into mischief because then they almost get too bored and they start thinking real savvy of, okay, what can I do to get my parents' attention? And that leads to the C, which is connection. If they don't feel connected to their caregiver, then they'll do anything they they they crave it. They want our love, they want our attention. And so if they don't have that connection with us, then they'll do whatever it takes to get it, even though that means getting in trouble for you to notice them and pay attention to them, right? And then the last one is it doesn't do with the ABCs, but it's power. It's kind of like the, you know, the stepchild of, you know, all the ABCs, but it's power, and that's the big one. And that's where the biggest power struggles come from. They don't feel um empowered by any way. They're not maybe given many choices. I mean, kids are told what to do all the time by their parents, their teachers, their coaches, you know, all the adults in their life. And they don't really get a lot of autonomy or agency to make their own choices. And so I do talk a lot about making choices in the book and and easy choices. You know, it doesn't have to be like even like you said, like the color plate or the color cup they're having for dinner, or you give them two options for clothes that day to wear to school and they can pick which one they want instead of being told you wear this type thing. Um, and as they get older, that changes, obviously. But, you know, giving kids more to more of that empowerment will actually help diffuse some of those power struggles too. So finding out what's behind the behavior so you can even prevent it from happening in the first place, or if you see it, you don't react to it in anger and like said yelling and punishing them for it because you say, okay, they're acting like this because of this. And that's that's the part you that you work out with, you know, from that connection piece.

Dr. Amy Moore 35:10

So I get questions all the time from parents about lying. My child lies all the time. What do I do about lying? Talk to us about lying from a how do we respond with playful language, or how do we use this idea of parenting through playfulness to address lying? Why does it happen and what do we do as parents?

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 35:31

Yeah. I actually have a whole blog on it. If anyone goes to my website, they'll they'll see a whole blog on it. And I really break it down for parents of why they do it, you know, what's and is very typical, like I said. So um, lying is a way for them sometimes to actually just understand um their critical thinking skills, their problem-solving skills on what's going on and how to solve it. So um, and learning right from wrong, trial and error, you know, uh just learning how their actions turn into um, let me say even like a consequence to their actions and natural consequences. So um, so a lot of times, you know, those kids on on the on the blanket part of it, kids will lie because they don't want to get in trouble, right? They know they did something wrong and that's you know, bugging their conscience. And so they lie to try and get out of something. And so parents can respond in all sorts of ways. I mean, if you respond automatically by saying, I know you're lying, and not even giving your chance to have your child to have a voice on maybe the why behind it, then that's where I think a parent is gonna fall short because they don't they they don't know maybe the reason why. They know their child is lying, but they don't want to they want to know the reason why behind it. I think the why is the most important part. So how to get that why is the most important piece here. So a lot of kids, like I said, they speak through play. They don't speak through talking, through lectures, through eye contact a lot of times. Um, they will speak through, so a lot of times what I'll tell parents to do is um, you know, even just get out a piece of paper. I use sand tray a lot as a play therapist and have them play in the sand and tell their story in the sand. But if you don't have something like that, just get out a piece of paper and have them write their story about what happened and why it happened from beginning to end. A lot of kids like to do like graphic novel style where they make it into like a comic book where they tell the story, you know, in that format, which is really fun too. So you can have them do something like that, telling the story of, okay, um, for whatever they're lying about from start to finish, tell me the story, how it happened, how you got to hear. And a lot of times, you know, like you can ask questions and um, well, what would what would have happened if you told me this way, which might be the truth, right? But you can, but so you're really talking them through. You're not accusing them, you're not blaming them, um, you're not shaming them, maybe even for lying, but you're having that conversation, you're growing that that connection with them. So that trust and that safety I talked about, um, to understand the why behind what they were doing. A lot of times they can do that by, like I said, storytelling. You can kind of make that into a fun game. If you don't want to do color or coloring or any type of drawing, use play-doh or something like that and have them build the story out in play-doh figures or something like that. So you can use play to really just have the conversation behind what happened and then talk it out through them by that way.

Dr. Amy Moore 38:12

I love that. That's super creative and great for younger children too, who can't necessarily write it out or um, but it also then again, I always talk about lowering the temperature. It lowers the temperature on, well, I, you know, I'm lying because I'm afraid of, you know, a consequence that you might be giving me, right? And so to turn it, I mean, you're taking it down a totally separate path at that point. Um, I mean, it's not even about a consequence. It's about, hey, I'd like to know more about what's going on in in your mind. Right.

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 38:45

And they and the line could be a protective piece. You know, they're protecting they maybe not even just themselves, but a friend or, you know, some, or maybe feeling they're protecting the parent by, well, if I do, if I admit that I'm lying, I'm hurting my parents' feelings, or they're going to be disappointed in me. And that's that hurts more than just getting in trouble. So, um, you know, and and I know, you know, we've talked about this before, and you could probably explain this even better than I can since I don't focus on it too much in the book, but just about brain development and you know, their prefrontal cortex, you know, it it's their it has it's not developed yet. So, you know, for them to to be irrational, or for them to lie, or for them to um, you know, take risk-taking behaviors uh or in impulsiveness, all those things are very typical for a child. That's that's just the way because their brain isn't developed yet. So those things are coming from an emotional side of things, not a logical side of things, like as adults are. So we may see things, and sometimes if kids say, I didn't mean to, they probably didn't because they didn't think it through or their brains aren't developed enough to think that deeply, like a parent would whose brain is fully developed, you can see things from different perspectives. The child just sees things from one way, and or if they say, Oh, I forgot, like if they if the parent says, Oh, you're supposed to be, you know, sitting in your seat during mealtime, the child might say, Oh, I forgot. I didn't know I was supposed to. Maybe sometimes that's actually true, you know, but giving them the benefit of the doubt more just based on uh instead of jumping, like I said, to that consequence, but understanding how their brain works and what why their brain works in a certain way at a certain age, I think is really uh mind opening to parents as a good reminder of, okay, so I can't really get mad at them for that because it's sometimes it's not necessarily their fault because it's just the way their brain is and how it's not developed yet. So I think that helps putting putting some of those things in perspective for parents too.

Dr. Amy Moore 40:30

Yeah, Sandy and I talk all the time about, you know, recognizing when there's a cognitive skill gap. And we see that in working memory all the time, right? Like we give kids a three-step direction and they do the first step and forget the other two steps because they might have, you know, a deficit in working memory. And so for them to then turn around and say, I forgot, is the truth, right? They lost those next two steps, right? Like, I need you to go upstairs, brush your teeth, change your clothes, put out your backpack for tomorrow morning before you go to bed, and then I'll be there, right? So they get to the bathroom and that's as far as they get because water play is a whole lot of fun.

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 41:16

Exactly. So I think when parents remember that, then it's easier for us to stay more regulated, you know, and and give them the benefit of the doubt and say, Oh, I've told them 20 times, or I've told I tell them over and over again. And sometimes, you know, it's bit depending on their age, especially. But sometimes, like you said, it's it's typical and sometimes we need to, and we have to just keep that in mind. Um, and it it might be frustrating, you know, it might be frustrating to say the same thing over and over again. Uh, or if they say, I forgot what's the next step, and you have to, you know, take time out again to tell them what that is. Um, but I think just knowing that um it's helped me, let's say, to to be a little more patient with them because parenting does take a lot of patience. Um, and sometimes, you know, we they need those teaching moments um to learn and to have it stick. So the the more you do it, the less you're gonna have to do it in the future. But there's a lot of front loading, and I get that that's really hard for parents sometimes.

Sandy Zamalis 42:11

Well, we don't remember us.

Dr. Amy Moore 42:13

Oh, sorry.

Sandy Zamalis 42:13

Yeah, that's okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's not well, it's not about us, and there's so much comparison, uh, especially when you have siblings, right? Like you have got multiple kids. You've got maybe one that actually has strong memory and they remember everything, and then you've got one that, you know, is really struggling. And we it tend to, as parents, put a um behavior management lens on it, like they're there's choosing not to remember, and that's not always the case. Um, and it's just really helpful for parents to see that so that they can, like you said, have more empathy.

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 42:45

Right. Or choosing to misbehave. I feel like that's such a myth. Like, oh, my child's just misbehaving on purpose just to get back at me or just to be manipulative, or you know, you hear all those things and I'm like, no, they're actually not. They actually want to please you as their caregiver. Like they don't really want to get in trouble. You know, even the kids that, you know, end up getting, I used to like I said, work in schools a lot, and there were children that were just kind of dismissed because they would just get in trouble a lot and they would be suspended a lot for different things they were doing. And yes, did the punishment for the crime, maybe sometimes. But, you know, it was a lot of times I I don't when I would talk to these kids one-on-one, because those would be the kids that would be referred to me, um, didn't really want to get in trouble. They didn't like getting in trouble, but there was reasons behind it, right? And so, um, but that I do think that's a myth that kids do that just on purpose, just to get under our skin. And sure, sometimes they'll get angry and they might want to be a little retaliatory. I get that. You know, I think we all get that. Even adults do that to each other. But I think for the most part, kids really don't want to upset their caregivers or get in trouble. And I don't think anyone likes the way that feels. Um, sometimes that's the only way kids get attention from their parents. Um, so that's that's a whole nother story. But um, but I think for most children, they don't really, they don't like it and they don't really want to do that on purpose.

Connection When Parents Feel Exhausted

Dr. Amy Moore 43:54

So I want to kind of come back to this idea of behavior communicating this need for connection. Sometimes. And you talk about how when a child says, play with me, what they're really saying is, I I want to be connected to you. Um, talk a little bit about that. And then how do we push through our own exhaustion? How do we push through our own thoughts of how boring is that? Right. Like I always joke that I if I had to listen to another Minecraft story, right? Because we do it because our child wants to tell us about something that they're excited about, right? And so we sit through it and we smile and we act excited. Um, but anyway, give us some tips on like how do we push through our own resistance and our our own exhaustion a lot of times as parents, so that our child does uh get that unmet need for connection met.

Screens Without Making Them The Enemy

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 45:00

And like I said, you know, I've said this, you know, throughout our conversation is that, you know, children connect through through play. A lot of times adults connect through through talking. And children aren't like that. Sometimes I've had whole sessions, 50-minute sessions with a child that we don't talk the entire time uh for whatever reason it is, and um, but we're still connected, you know. So a lot of times when children do say play with me, it is a call for help. It's a it's a cry to be connected to that, to that caregiver. Um, because either they don't feel connected enough or they want to feel connected more because they know how good it feels. They know how good it feels to their to their heart and their soul and they love their parents and and their caregivers and they want to um to feel, like I said, safe and and loved and heard and seen. And if they don't feel that way, then they will search for it even more. Um, and usually when we're busy is when they want it the most, you know, for cooking dinner, if we're in the middle of laundry, if we're on a phone call, right? We're on the kids don't pay attention to us until we're on the phone and all of a sudden that's when they need us the most. Like mommy, mommy, mommy. Um, but it's because our attention is somewhere else. It's not on. And it's not realistic to think that our our attention can be on them all the time. It's not. Um, so a lot of times I will tell parents, especially ones who work from home and have littles with them or on a weekend or something, and depending what job you have, you know, and they'll say, Well, usually play is looked at as, well, we can play after you get your homework done and we can play at almost like a reward. And I say no, that's backwards. Like play with your child first, connect with them, help them feel seen, heard, loved, connected, and then say, okay, now we're gonna do our chores or now we're gonna do whatever it is that we're gonna do, homework or whatever it is, um, because they the connection piece is already there, their cup is already filled. So then when you do something else, it doesn't get depleted even more. So but if you start from a deficit and then they have to earn their play or earn that connection with you later, then it's gonna be harder for them to focus on what they actually need to get done first. So get that play piece and that connection piece done at the beginning, set up that foundation, and then you have, you know, room to, you know, they'll be more apt to comply at that point, you know, also. Um and you know, the the the going back to the exhaustion that we talked about at the beginning, that parenting is exhausting. It's challenging, it can be very trying at sometimes. So I actually have two different chapters I think parents will like for this. One is how to, how, how to help parents self-regulate and then how to help their child self-regulate. It's my longest chapter because it's it's so prominent in what we do with our in the parenting world. So I give lots of ideas of how parents can can regulate. You know, I talk all the way from shoulder tapping to deep breathing, all different types of techniques. Sometimes it just means leaving the the house or and going outside in the backyard or on the patio or wherever you are just to get a couple deep breaths and some fresh air. Sometimes just changing our environment and changing the temperature and whatever we're doing, washing our hands, putting some something cold on our face, that can just help set our set us back to normal, uh, you know, um, to baseline in in just a very short time. Because parents don't have time to do like the long self-care bubble baths and manicures, you know, every single day. Like that's just that's impossible, right? And I say that dramatically because it's true. I think a lot of people think, you know, to to really be in a regulated state of mind, we have to really take time out of our day and carve it out. And we really don't. We can incorporate it into what we're already doing. So I have a whole chapter on that to help parents um in the heat of the moment get regulated very quickly and then also help their child get regulated. Because if the parent isn't regulated, the child is not going to be regulated and they're just gonna escalate and it's gonna just, you know, blow up from there. Um, I also have a whole chapter. Um, it's it's titled something like, um, you know, for the play for the exhausted, overwhelmed, and overstimulated parent, or something like that. Um, because I know, like I said, days can be long, right? And can be tough. So I give lots of really fun examples on how to still be connected to your child through play, but where you're not, like I said, actively sitting on the full floor and active dialogue with them. So I have examples. The one that people seem to love the most is my spa um example, um, where my daughter did this. And one day I was just having a really stressful, hard day. I don't know what it was. And so she said, Well, let me let me take you to the spa mom. And so she had me lay down and she put she closed the drapes, it was a little darker. She put on some, she took my phone and put on, or maybe it was Alexa, I don't know, but put on some kind of spa music, some relaxing, you know, music. And um, she I did cut the cucumbers for her, but she put cucumbers on my eyes and then put a like a face towel and kind of wet it and put it on my forehead. And she just had me just like, shut your eyes and I'll take care of you. And for even like five, 10 minutes, it was sometimes it was longer, but she would just brush my hair or she would read me a story, you know, from a book or whatever it was. And I just got to lay there, but I was actively connecting and quote unquote playing with her. Um, but she was the one doing all the work and I was just laying there relaxed. You can do that with a medical kit. Your kids, you can be the patient, they can be the doctor, and you lay there on the couch or on the bed and they take your temperature and you know, do all the medical things. Um, one time my son he wanted to put on a fashion show for me. So he's like, I know you're tired, mom. And he was probably like seven or eight at the time. He's like, I know you're tired. Why don't you just go sit on the bed? And he went in my closet, you know, in the master bedroom, and they both went in there and they would pick out my clothes and because kids love to dress up and do role plays and stuff. And so they would like to wear my clothes. And so they both went in there and my son picked out some of my husband's things, my daughter picked out some of my things, and they'd come out and do like a fashion show. And all I had to do was sit in the bed and watch them. I didn't have to talk, I didn't have to get up, I didn't have to do anything. And it was great. And so I have uh lots of ideas like that for parents. Um, one of my favorite ones in the book, too, is um a mom had told this to me after she saw me speak somewhere years ago, where she had a toddler and she had a newborn and she was feeding the newborn in one of, you know, the the newborn rocking chairs, and she's in the middle of feeding, and you know, her son, her newest child was maybe like a couple weeks old. And um, her daughter wanted to play. And she's like, I'm in the middle of nursing. Like, I, you know, I don't, I don't have time or energy to play right now. Like I'm taking care of this newborn baby who really needs my attention and and food right now. And the toddler was starting to have like a meltdown and a little bit of a tantrum because that toddler is not used to having a new baby to compete with for the for mommy's time. And so she got out, just she's like, Well, we want what do you want to play? And the daughter wanted to play princesses. And so she got just one of those tiaras and put it on her head, and then she got one of those scepters, and she just sat in the chair while she's nursing her baby and had the scepter and was starting to like, you know, do a thing was she said pixie dust, but you know, pixie dust. And the the daughter was just playing around, playing with her dolls, you know, and other, you know, fairy and princess type stuff. And the mom decided to sit there with the tiara in her head and kind of move her hand and once her free hand, her only free hand, and move it around with the scepter a little bit. And she was still actively connecting and playing with her child without having to leave the chair or leave her newborn. So there's so many ways parents can incorporate it on those really exhausting, heavy days um that, you know, don't really take that much time or energy um that can be implemented easily into your day, just sprinkled in wherever you can find it. I love that.

Sandy Zamalis 51:48

Well, and I know you have to go, but I want I feel like this is a great segue to a topic that we always get asked about, which is screens. Because that kind of exhausted moment is the time we think, oh gosh, here, just your tablet. Wait a minute.

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 52:05

So that's our three. Are on a long pine ride? I mean, that uh they come in handy sometimes, I'm not gonna lie.

Sandy Zamalis 52:11

So, real quick to kind of wrap us up, give us your take on screens, uh and especially um the importance again of that child brain development. You know, how can we limit screens um but not necessarily um make them the worst thing in the world because they're here to stay.

Where To Find Dr Kim And Closing

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 52:29

So Right. It's true. And they aren't the enemy. Again, there's a time and place for them. And there's a lot of educational content on screens. Um, I think what I always encourage parents to do is um, you know, choose wisely on what you're actually having your child consume, all the content they're they're consuming. Um, you know, is it fast content? Is it very fast moving content that is, you know, that's making their brain get wired in that moment and kind of get overstimulated? Um, is it, you know, the kind of content that um I know there was, you know, there's different shows out there, and I won't name name names because I don't want to, you know, initially um condemn any shows out there that I used to actually watch with my kids too, but um, that might have certain language you don't want your children to learn, you know, um let's say Brady language or just um language that you wouldn't use in your own home type thing, you know, there's there's some of those shows out there. Um, so you know, finding the right kind of content that your child's consuming is half the battle. Once you have that, then you know, again, limit that screen time. I again have a whole chapter on this in the book, but you know, limiting your screen time and then replacing it with play type activities. So um what I like to do is have, because here's the thing, whenever I give my kids the option, and this has worked for years when they were little and now they're a little bit on the older end, I have a nine-year-old and a 12-year-old. But even still in when they were younger, if if they had other options, they would always choose the play option. But if they only had the media option, that's what they're gonna choose because that's just like an easy go-to, right? For all of us. And um so have like a if the, if the if the play items are tucked away in a drawer or up on a shelf where they can't reach, then that's not gonna be any good. So have like a basket that you have some already just things in that you can put in a drawer or put somewhere, but then when they get home from school or just, you know, during a certain time of day if they're young and younger and not in school yet, bring it out. Bring out the basket and have some art, you know, craft supplies in there and some art supplies in there, and just, you know, some Play-Doh and just some fun sensory type toys and, you know, different things like that. Um, have a big sensory bin that's ready to go and just change up the theme once in a while based on the time of year or just your your child's um, you know, interests. Um, have those things readily already done and available. So when you need that moment where you say, I need time to do this, this or this, but I'm gonna get out that sensory bin or I'm gonna get that playbasket and then put it out for them and they'll find things to do in there. And you can, you know, put magnetiles and all the different things that you know you think your child will engage in and have that ready to go. If you try to wing it in the moment when you're trying to you're in the middle of something and you're already kind of getting a little heated because it's been one of those days, um, you're gonna go to that screen time every time because that is the easy way out. Um, so it does take a little pre preparation, a little front loading, but once you have it, it's your go-to for so long. And then again, you can change things out and swish things up a little bit every once in a while, um, because you know, the kids will be like, I already did this 10 times. I don't want to do this, you know, this again. Um, so change it up sometimes, but um, but have those readily available. So when you are in that moment, and I have a whole 30, 30 ways to play in the book and things. And so you just, you know, print that out, stick it on the fridge. And we are in that moment, say, okay, what can my kids do? Okay, they can build a fort or they can do, you know, this or that, and already have those things readily available, whether it's in the book or just that you already have prepared. Um, and that's what kids will go to. That's what the they will, because you'll you'll already have it. And then you won't necessarily have to go to the screen because that won't be your only choice or it won't be their only choice.

unknown 55:46

Dr.

Dr. Amy Moore 55:47

Kim, how can our listeners find more from you?

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 55:50

Uh, I would say the first place to go to is my website, theparentologist.com, or I say the parentologist, but it's all you know, parent and thenologist. So theparentologist.com. Um, there you can find all my socials. I'm most active on Instagram at theparentologist. Um, and then of course they can find me on my podcast, which is still branded as the parentologist podcast, which you are a guest on as well. And um, and then of course my book, uh Parenting Through Play. Um, you can find wherever books are sold. And um, there's a direct link of different places like Amazon, Burns Noble, um, Books A Million, all the great places on my website, or you can just, you know, search it on wherever you buy your books and it should be there, hopefully. And um, but yeah, I love connecting, obviously, with um, with you know, my community and just other moms and hearing their stories. And so um, I do encourage them to, you know, shoot me a DM or write me an email or connect with me in some way. Um, and I just, you know, I love, I love our mom community and I love connecting with them. And so any way they can find me, um, hopefully they do. And um, they have all sorts of ways to try and do that.

Dr. Amy Moore 56:51

Well, thank you for spending this time with us. We know that you are super busy, and so we love that you took your time out of your busy schedule to bless our listeners with so many great tips. I mean, you packed the tips into this uh 45 minutes. And so um I think that this is probably going to be an episode that people will listen to more than once. Um, so we really appreciate that.

unknown 57:14

Yeah.

Dr. Amy Moore 57:14

Yes.

Dr. Kim Van Dusen 57:15

Well, thank you for having me. It was a pleasure to share what I'm passionate about. And hopefully the goal is to help and support other parents and moms out there. So hopefully I did that and and we'll continue doing that as well. So thank you for that opportunity.

Dr. Amy Moore 57:26

Yeah, for sure. All right, let's close the show. Listeners, we love it that you choose to spend this hour with us every week. Um, if you want more from us, you can find us on social media at the Brainy Moms. Uh, you can sign up for a free newsletter on our website at thebrainy moms.com. And you can find Sandy on TikTok at The Brain Trainer Lady, where she demonstrates really cool cognitive training exercises and other um ideas for brain development for kids. Uh, so look, um, that's all the smart stuff that we have for you today. We hope that you feel a little bit smarter after spending this hour with us. We'll catch you next time.